Now that the pissing contest is slowly winding now - does anyone have any clarity on what happened between Weidenfeller and Reus?
from the first glance, it looked like they just wanted to waste time ... not sure if anything serious
Ok SirManchester. If you keep looking at all of it through your lenses and think that is what they experience, you will see it that way. That is why you called it "just a game". Try telling that to people who actually devote MUCH more from their lives to it than analysis from 5000 miles away through a computer screen. It's so little about diagrams on a drawing board to them, Unless you are in the shoes of coaches, fans or other people close to the scene you'll never know the context they're talking about. That is why you sound like a lawyer who has no REAL idea of who or what he is defending. The ironic thing is that this is a part of your own day to day life - this relationship to football that you've called a "game" but spent days, months or years analysing..that's why you are so intent on sharing it here, isn't it?...so why don't you just speak for yourself. Neither I nor Loewenboy claim know about the experience through coaches' or players' eyes with as much certainty as you do. We only talk about it with certainty from our point of view.
What happens when an unstoppable and tremendously persistent force meets an immovable, rock-solid object? Heynckes' Hanging Leftnut vs SirManchester happens. A slow grindfest in which neither side gives an inch, but rather rub against each other in a consistent and repetitive, albeit exceptionally unproductive motion until both the immovable object and the unstoppable force come to a mutual understanding to simply leave each other alone out of exhaustion.
http://sportbild.bild.de/bundesliga...rt-weidenfeller-reus-zoff-35584594.sport.html Weidenfeller was angry at Reus because he lost the ball that caused a dangerous counter...
He slept with his wife? He wrote a book about his team? He cheated on his taxes? He made an illegal precontract with Bayern? He betrayed BVB? Wait, no, that was Bayern.
This is your problem though. I'm not looking through my lenses. I've taken the "emotional" aspect of your argument and put it in the context of what I view is a more objective point of view in this debate. You don't. And you even didn't articulate your point or addressed the inherent impossibility of articulation that your point of view causes. You simply ignore. When you say people devote their lives to it, they do it THROUG STRATEGY. That's their involvement. They put everything into it. I once again raise the issue of craft. When you take part in a craft and become an expert in it or strive to, you take EVERYTHING into consideration. You look at things from the bigger perspective and you zoom in, you are passionate about the strategy, chalk boards, computer screens, etc. This idea seems to be lost on you. You talk as if there is some sort of distance between me and football and that distance makes it IMPOSSIBLE and FUTILE to talk about in the same detail that coaches and players need to so you are reducing mine and your role to so much less and that's simply wrong. It's a very black and white world view. You can absolutely dedicate time to using the same tools as experts do, but you just do it from a different place. Your place in the universe doesn't determine your ability to participate. We are obviously not playing football or coaching but I don't make conclusive statements based on that. It's your mistake in misreading what I say as such. Then again, if you need to be reminded that our conversations have a degree of hypothesis, then that only strengthens my argument that you shouldn't even be participating in dialogue if you can't handle this. I've tried to articulate this and I am saddened you are not trying harder to articulate your point of view. I am more than open to hearing your side but it doesn't seem like it's allowing you to make an argument that isn't based on the notion of directly contradicting me so what you're really doing is just overtly being dissident for the sake of it. So let me give you some advice then. If you aren't going to add to my attempt at dialogue and make the statements you do that are clearly meant to be dismissive, then why do you even engage me? You're not here to have discussion or be open to them. Please put me on ignore.
Buddy, anything YOU perceive IS through your lenses. The middle of your post is the usual lecture of saying you know exactly what others are seeing as they go through their lives. As for the last part, I did try to engage with you. I put forward reasons as to why the match went the way it did; saying that it looked very unlikely to me that it was due only to complacency on bayern's part. This is also what loewenboy did. We presented our speculations/opinions. Then you replied by saying that you know exactly why..and not being open to anything else...as if you were in Guardiola's or the players' heads. If you have this ability, please clarify. There is one other thing I found ironic. After you said that without analysis, that fans may resort to just screaming obscenities and that anger may impair articulation, you are the only one who name-called and got flustered enough to, in a recent post, not even type outside of the quotation tags. Maybe you should form a strategy for yourself?
You didn't try though. You failed to address most of my points, the usual conjecture. And this is all after YOUR reply to my post was essentially a passive aggressive remark about prediction... not even an invitation to discussion, just a childish attack. There is a clear misunderstanding here. I'm reframing the argument but you are stuck on the the surface level component about "prediction" and "knowing". You just aren't stepping out of it. Maybe I just don't have the ability to put the right words together for you to understand. Buddy, please just ignore me then so you don't get "offended" by anything I write. We'll both be better off. Otherwise I'm just going to sound obnoxious.
And yours is concrete? Please clarify if you have the ability to see inside guardiola's or the players' heads. Your prediction, at which i admittedly did make a passive-aggressive remark, was made on this basis. Everything i wrote came from me.....not from Guardiola or anybody else.
oh my god..it's never been about that... nor did I ever say anything like that indefinitely. It's just something you made up because you don't understand what a group of words combined mean. or Maybe I don't know how to put them together. Which is odd because there are enough posters here whom I never have any issues with but as you can see, I'm leaving it up to that possibility. There might just be a specific way I need to talk to you or you made your mind up already and everything that follows is a defensive action based on your encounter with an unknown quantity that questions your resources of knowledge/understanding. The more you engage me to explain myself, the more obnoxious I will sound. please put me on ignore
AFAIK "indefinitely" is only used to refer to a lack of limits to time..not other qualities. So.........if what you are saying is that you are not in their heads and that everything you said is your opinion; hence said without the knowledge of what the bavarian protagonists were experiencing........we are good. Even if not...there is no need to "ignore". With that...as the man said...Happy holy thursday
I agree with SirManchester. Bayern have had complacency problems for a few years. Pep put his best starting eleven against Dortmund because the rivalry is so big and he wanted to win it obviously but the players didn't have the motivation. With the style of footbal Pep wants to play( high line, patient build-up play), if you aren't at 100% you'll get punished especially against very good,motivated teams. You need to be focused and motivated to play tiki taka or you will get destroyed on the counter attack(for example, Spain comes to mind when they got humiliated against Argentina and Portugal in friendly matches after the WC '10). In an important match like the German Cup final, Bayern will most likely win. When it matters, Robben is,unfortunately, a different class. If he gets injured (plus thiago being out), I think we will have a chance.
Everytime I watch Bayern, I find Robben more threatening than Ribery to be fair. I really don't think Ribery is better than Robben.
I think everyone who has posted has stated as much that Bayern has this problem. What is unknown is whether it is Pep's fault or the team's fault. Some have such amazing insight into Pep's mind and thoughts to claim it must be the team (because it's obvious ), whereas others -- like me and Heynckes -- have been saying we cannot know for certain if it's the team's fault...but that it most likely is. In the end we're not that far apart with who is to blame...just that we cannot know for certain since we are not in the locker room. That's the argument in a nutshell.
I rather wonder why we didn't show more complacency after the treble winning season. I mean there's a reason why not even the great Bayern team of the 70s won the treble or why neither the great Barca, Real, United, Ajax, Juventus or Milan teams ever managed to defend the Uefa Champions League title in 21 years. Keeping up that hunger for titles is an incredibly hard challenge, especially when a series of injuries gets into the mix and disturbs the playing rhythm. At the end of the day Bayern is still in all three competitions and we're approaching late April...not too shabby even for a treble winning team.
From what ive seen, I agree with everything but the last point. I thin there are a couple of teams around who arent beaten before they step on the field in a big match against bayern. Or at least who arent intimidated. I think bvb is one of them. I dont think real madrid is though..so i think bayern will go through in that one. About a 70/30 chance.