2012 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup preview/results discussion [R]

Are you sure about that?

Related to this, I noticed that neither of the USLPRO teams are hosting this time. So far I haven't heard of anyone looking into it, but my bet is that, with the hosting fee at $25k this round, neither of them put in a bid. And looking at the historic draw of the two teams, I can't see why they would.

If I followed the earlier discussion correctly, y'all figured out that the cost of hosting a game is (USSF fee) + (cost of stadium and all other costs of running a game).

If this is indeed true, then the USSF will bring in $100k just this round. They brought in $192k for the 3rd round, and $144k for the 4th round. So between those three rounds, the USSF will have brought in $436k. Plus perhaps a little more for the turnouts in KC and Salt Lake (15% of the gross gate receipts above $100,000). I don't know how that stacks up against the income they got last year since last year's process was sealed bids all the way through, or what the outlay they have for the tournament, other than the prize money (total: $180k).

But at a very bad back-of-the-envelope calculation, it seems likely that to me that this year the tournament will again make money even before the final in Sea.... er, the final.

Well they do reimburse teams up to 8K for travel (per round I think), so there is that expense.

Does the USSF pay the refs? If they pay them MLS rate, that's an additional $1K-$3K cost per game (depending on experience).

Not to mention the cost of getting special coins made just to piss off Sigi.

True. That could be a lot. If it was 8k for every game, that would eat up a half million right there. But it's not going to be, especially in the first round where you have match-ups like Croatian Eagles v. Chicago Fire PDL. So I'm really not sure how to guesstimate the cost there. Even assuming 1/2 the max ($252k) seems like too much, just looking over the pairings we've had so far.

I doubt they're getting paid the MLS rate, and there's some question about the experience level of some of these refs

Nevertheless, if you take the top rate, that's another 189k. Adding in these two things and the prize money, now we're over $600k. So, yeah, I now see how it is that the tournament is on the edge. Of the three items included, the travel reimbursement is the biggest question mark. Anyone got a reasonable guess as to how quickly a team would hit the $8k travel cost? I haven't looked at plane fares in quite a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if even pairings like Orlando City - KC Athletics was that much.

And if the ref fee is at the other end, that would bring that cost down to $63k, and now we're back in the black, even with higher-end travel reimbursements.

I'm an accountant and can follow numbers...

but you lost me.

Well figure an 18-man travel squad, a coach or two, a trainer and an equipment guy, maybe a team administrator. You're looking at probably 22 to 23 people travelling on short notice. Figure they'll have to stay over at least one night, even sharing rooms that's 12 hotel rooms. At $60 a night that's around $800 after taxes just for the hotel rooms. A per diem of what, $30 is another $700. So that leaves $6500 for airfaire. $6500/23 = $282 per person for airfare on short notice.

So its probably doable for about $8K, but probably not for much less than that.

USSF does have a max for # of rooms (23 I think) and max cost per room I think, the Per diem is about 32-35 bucks.

Don't forget that some matches don't require airfare but bus travel, and maybe even day of (no stay over). I'm assuming the Union took a bus to the soccerplex, as well Harrisburg taking a bus (or train and bus) to here come 2 weeks from now and pretty sure they aren't staying over. So it's all pending on location of opponents to one another - one would think.

so while they are paying 8k for one team, they're paying more around 3-4 k for some others.

Yeah, but the further West you go the less likely that happens. I count 6 of the 3rd round games and 3 of the 4th round games where a lower league side would have needed airfare and a hotel. Probably 2 out of the 4 quarterfinals as well.

Also, there is no incentive for a team not to spend the full $8K. So if a team ran the numbers and found that they would only get $6K back, they might rent a nicer bus, or have fewer people share hotel rooms to not "waste" the reimbursed money.

I'm guessing the Michigan Bucks didn't make their money back, drawing 1,106 at $13 a head and paying $18k to host the match in the first place. Though they did split the $10k with Cal FC, so they may not have lost a lot when all was said and done, on their Open Cup experience.

At what point does it become not worth it? Will amateur and low-level clubs realize they simply can't cover the nut of hosting and just hope to win the coin flip and sell the rights?

Probably because I was 'thinking out loud' (ie., babbling)

Tournament has 63 games (16 1st round + 16 2nd+ 16 3rd + 8 4th + 4 quarter + 2 semi + final)

Expenses:
Travel Reimbursement <=$8k per game * 63 = $504k
Assuming half that as a reasonable WAG, $252k
(though the discussion above on travel costs makes me think that maybe this is an underestimate)

Referee pay $1K-$3K cost per game $3k*63 = $189k

Prize money = $180k

Total very roughly estimated cost for putting on the Open Cup: $621k

Income:
$436k (income from hosting fees through the quarter final )
+ whatever additional they got for good crowds in KC and Salt Lake
+ hosting fees for the closed bids on the semifinal and final.

And, with that, I rescind my call for higher prize money. If anything can be eked out anywhere, I'd lean more toward an increase in the travel reimbursement.

Do MLS squads get their travel expenses reimbursed? If so I'd say cut that to save money right there.

I think that's high, don't you?

His numbers were supposedly from MLS games, and I went with them as I don't remember the numbers I accidentally noticed on the post-game checks for the D2 games a couple years ago. And have yet to notice the PDL fees. I would expect that the pay and ref quality goes up in each round.

I do remember that the referees also got travel, so that's probably wrapped into that amount. And there's four referees. I'm not a referee watcher. Maybe someone that knows them better can look over the games and give us a sense of the experience of the refs.

In theory.

There are always four.

Referee, two linesmen, one fourth official.

Yeah. I was just pointing out what's probably obvious. That $1000 seems like a lot, but it doesn't seem nearly as much if you split it $100, $250, $250, $400, or something like that.

And I could be wrong, but I don't think it's that much.

Oh, wait, I actually have it:

1st round: National Referees $150, National ARs $100, 4th $85
2nd Round: National Referees $300, FIFA ARs $250, National ARs $200, 4th $125
3rd Round/Quarters: FIFA Referees $600, National Referees $500, FIFA ARs $350, National ARs $300, 4th $200
Semifinal/Final: FIFA Referees $700, National Referees $550, FIFA ARs $400, National ARs $325, 4th $200

(They seem to be using the 2011 fee schedule, because it doesn't have a "4th Round" listed, which this tournament has while most have not, and it lists an "MLS Play-In Round," which, of course, no longer exists.)

So you can do the math. 1st round you'd shell out $435 for officials. 2nd Round no more than $825. 3rd (and presumably 4th) and Quarters no more than $1500. Semi and final no more than $1700.

USSF also pays travel expenses for officials, yes?

I'm pretty sure for some of the games they just pick 4 lucky people from the audience.

Yes, I was speaking strictly of game fees. I would imagine on early round games, officials are driving from not terribly far away, but I haven't seen the list to confirm that.

Cool! I love having actual numbers. Thanks, Kenn!

So, let's do some math. I'm going to use those numbers and round up for a little travel, though I've heard from a friend that the requirement is for the referees to match the highest level of the team involved. Which would mean that the Michigan - Dayton match (for example) wouldn't be as expensive as the other matches for that round.

I'm going to use $500 for the first round, $1000 for the second, $1750 for the 3rd, 4th and Quarters, and $2000 for the Semis and Final. Yes, it's once again somewhat arbitrary, but a little overestimating's probably OK here.

That totals up to $79k, $110k less than the worst-case I used in my math above. So that brings the cost of running the tournament down to around $511k.

I'm sure both the travel and referee estimates could be more refined with more information, but this new info suggests that the tournament could make money again this year. Assuming the closed bids are at least the same as the previous round, that and the 'over 100k audience income' should push it to even or a little over.

One interesting question that I don't think I've seen asked anywhere is what the USSF did with the extra money they made last year. Does it go to covering previous losses? Dropped back into the general USSF bucket? Accounting is so much fun.

They spent that money on 20 plane tickets for Brek Shea, Freddy Adu, and company to fly to London.
Sucks that all the cheapest airline tickets are non-refundable.

Didn't USSF operate at a loss last year (or project one for this year)? Partially because of Klinsmann's salary?