2012 AFC Champions League

Discussion in 'AFC: Tournaments' started by jonny63, Dec 6, 2011.

  1. kman1456

    kman1456 Member

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    for West Asia:
    IRI 4
    KSA 4
    UZB, QAT , UAE 1.5
    KUW, JOR 1
    SYR , IRQ, BHR 0.5
    (UZB, QAT, UAE seeded)
    for East Asia
    JPN, KOR 4
    CHN 2.5
    AUS, THA 1.5 (league size for AUS, too small to really merit more than 2 teams involved in Asian competition; if it were to expand 2 or 2.5 slots would be allocated if league were to reach 14 and 18 teams respectively)
    SIN 1
    VIE, IDN, HKG 0.5
    (CHN, AUS, THA seeded)

    As for the single-season CL, such would work best if were in the winter, as the summer would be taken up by national team duties. Besides, winters in most places in Asia, aside from Mongolia, far northeastern China, and the west coast of Japan if it is just below freezing, are not bad. The latter two only have one team apiece in the top division that would face harsh conditions (Changchun and Niigata), so the impact would most likely be negligible.


  2. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    The Asian Champions League format will always be flawed because Asia is a huge continent and there will always be certain nations/teams that end up feeling left out.

    Perhaps the ACL shouldn't have group stages but simply knockout rounds from beginning 'till end? That way we could include teams from more countries. The knockouts should start sometime in September and finish sometime in April, the following calendar year.

    And I also think the Champions League should be exclusive to only the "champions" of each country. It's kind of pathetic that countries like Qatar and the UAE send 4 teams or something like that. That's like half of their league table sent to play in Asia.
  3. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Member

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    Keep your racial thoughts to yourself when discussing a game where men kick an air filled leather sack around. It's most unbecoming.

    Yes, historically. Look at the groups in 2010, they were much closer than it seems. Last place Al Ain was only three points off of the winner of the group. Indian teams would do better? You mean when the third place UAE Team, Al Wahda beat the Indian Representative in the playoff with a 5-2 scoreline?

    And really, why do you care what happens to the Arabs? Shouldn't you be happy that the AFC is delivering weak teams to you for victory?
  4. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    Funny you mention that, Burning Phoenix. If Saudi clubs can still top their groups and make it far enough in the ACL, in their worst period, I dread to think how well they can dominate when they're back to what they used to be.


  5. nimaa

    nimaa Member

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    wtf are you babbling about?
    2/12 teams have managed to advance from the group stages in the past 4 years. That's shockingly bad. I can't believe you're arguing about this with me!!! And yeah, I'm inclined to believe that Indian teams would do better, anybody would.

    In Europe, UAE wouldn't have a representative in the CL anymore. In Asia however, performance and quality are not important. The amount of money spent on a stadium seems to matter more.
  6. nimaa

    nimaa Member

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    Why do you say that? Is there something happening in the Saudi league that we haven't heard about?

    Their league is still better funded than most leagues in the continent and everything else is business as usual.
    teammellieIRANfan repped this.
  7. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    Then you must have a real shotty perception of standard and what "well" or "okay" is.
    In the last 5 edititions only 3 out 18 UAE teams have made it to the knockout stage. hmm....
    2+1 at least? lol gtfo
    nimaa repped this.
  8. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    Honestly Ive heard that kind of talk before. How if the Saudi teams "mereley" does ok, they are in the worst period. But if they get back on the horse they are gonna dominate Asian football.
    As if its all in their own hands to dominate, and not factor in or credit the fact that other leagues are improving. To me it doesnt make a whole lot sense. Dont get me wrong, Saudi league is good and they have done well in ACL.
    But I guess some people have that viewpoint that Saudi's role is to dominate asian football, and if they fall short and does ok (not even bad, but ok or actually good), they are in deep sh*t and in the gutter just waiting to climb back up and dominate again.

    *yawn
  9. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    It's not about the funds they have. It's quite clear in the GCC that Saudi football went backwards in the past 10 years. At one time, they were on the same level, if not better, than the professional football leagues in the Far East. Nowadays, other countries improved and practice professionalism to a better level than Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia are still stuck in the 90s, while countries like Japan, South Korea and Australia have all went forward. The quality of football isn't as good as it used to be, either. Back then Saudi football stars were more professional in their way of life, thinking, etc. Today, Saudi players are getting overpaid and aren't producing half of what the previous generation of players produced. Footballers are spoiled, there's a lack of professionalism, money's going to waste and isn't going in the right places, even the parity that once existed in Saudi football slowly disintegrated in the past 10 years (although hopefully that's going to change), etc. There are many details that aren't always covered to a great extent in public. Saudi football has gone backward, regardless of the money being splashed. The efficiency is more important than the money. The UAE aren't funding their football league as extensively as Saudi Arabia, but their level of professionalism and care far exceeds other GCC countries right now, which explains why they have the best youth systems, youth teams, and are slowly beginning to reemerge at the club level.

    If the Saudis go back to hiring the right people for the right job, improve their level of professionalism across all the football-related issues (instead of only focusing on professionalism on the pitch), and if they stop politicizing their sport in the manner that Kuwait have disastrously done, then they'll be back there. Their worst period is still capable of producing top teams that can reach ACL semi finals, so I dread to think how much they'll dominate if they execute things properly like they used to. That's not because Saudi Arabia is destined to dominate Asian football (or fail when it fails itself)... Rather, it's because other countries aren't taking full advantage of the situation. The Koreans and Japanese are the only ones who took advantage of Saudi Arabia's slip, and they could actually do better if it wasn't for the fact they sometimes prioritize other sports over football (e.g. baseball). Same could be said about the Aussies, who pretty much live in their own World. The real failure is that football-crazy countries, especially Middle Eastern ones, haven't taken any advantage of Saudi's slip.
  10. druryfire

    druryfire BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    Nimaa, burning phoenix gave you evidence of a UAE side soundly beating an Indian team, so to say your inclined to believe that Indian sides would do better is wrong.

    In Europe, yes UAE would have allocation taken off, but they would still have chance to compete in ACL through playoffs. This year has shown though that progress is being made in the UAE, only 4 years after going into this ACL professional system that we have. Everyone agrees that they have too many slots but to say they shouldn't be there is wrong.

    Everyone wants to push on other nations not currently included in ACL, but most of these members here pushing it also don't want their sides to play in AFC Cup which would help bring the gap between ACL and AFC Cup even closer in the years to come. So to want a push for other nations to be included and then complain about having to take the field in AFC Cup kind of contradicts everything.

    But please look at the bigger picture. AFC produced criteria to be met to be included, UAE followed it, Jordan/Syria didn't for example, India did but aren't in ACL now so they obviously went off track. These nations could have the best teams in the world but have half baked domestic leagues, so why should they prosper?

    Look at Bahrain, they pull out every year. Singapore withdrew the year before. In a sporting competition your right performance and quality should be important, but getting basic infrastructure in place should be aswell. To tell a club that they need medical facilities shouldn't even be happening, but it does cos some nations simply don't adhere to it. Would you want your team going to a nation where they can't provide CPR if need be? All the bigger picture.
  11. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    Hey Druryfire, could you please explain what you meant here?

    Did you mean that the people complaining about their sides not being included in the ACL are the same ones who don't want to give their sides the chance to play in the AFC Cup?

    They're not given the chance to prosper, though. That's the whole point. The reformatting that MBH did -- while he served as president of the AFC -- basically ruined these aforementioned leagues.
  12. druryfire

    druryfire BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    What I mean is that we have people on this forum saying, give Jordan, Syria a chance in ACL, yet when it was discussed about ACL teams going into AFC Cup they cry and say why should they be playing at that level. So what do they want?

    Everyone started on an equal footing. All nations know the critiera, some choose to follow it, some are starting to follow it. Look at Oman, they want to be in at 2013 edition and are slowly building their league up. Thailand weren't in, but now they are, so there is chance to propser.

    What AFC need to do is give winners and runners up of AFC Cup direct route to ACL to bridge that gap aswell. Whilst doing it they might aswell kill off the regional group stages which is a joke with West Asian sides playing in East Asia for the last two years. Bridge that gap and I'm sure AFC won't feel the need to reward some nations with 3 or 4 slots.

    As for MBH being in charge, you could say he has brought Asian football out from the colder and into the limelight. Before his time there was generally nothing for little nations, now there is a tleast something. But also Kutsuit, the biggest argument on this thread is the number of allocations that have increased for some nations, and MBH wasn't even in charge when these were announced.

    Of course, the criteria can be argued as a joke for nations like Iraq who would always fail them, so there does have to be a fine ground between peformance and the critiera listings, but I'm sure in time once we have run this current course which is still early days, can we then get to a UEFA style co-efficent which we all want.
  13. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    Do you blame them, though? It's bad enough that the ACL isn't that great a tournament compared to other continental competitions. The AFC Cup is a joke so it's not surprising that people don't want to see their clubs downgraded to that level.

    That's not true. Qatar got into the ACL because of MBH. The UAE passed the so-called ACL criteria because of Serkal, the pet puppet of MBH and his right-hand man. What exactly makes the UAE and Qatari leagues any different than Kuwait's or Bahrain's? Whatever made these two leagues pass the criteria was merely artificial. Has there been any real privatization and real professionalization in these two countries? Nope. Qatari clubs are still state-funded and state-controlled. They own the clubs. Each sheikh ceases control of one of the clubs and asks the government of Qatar to fund the club with money from its oil/gas revenue. The government cant say no because it's a sheikh we're talking about. So they get millions thrown into no-name clubs like Lekhwiya and Al Jaish, and then they spend some of those millions on players and stadium facilities, while commissioning the other millions into their Swiss bank accounts. That's the case in Qatar and that's the case in the UAE.

    So what exactly is different between these two countries and Kuwait? Simple: Kuwait doesn't allow sheikhs to cease control of clubs and steal oil revenue. We have a parliament which wouldn't hesitate grilling a royalty like a Persian kebab if he attempts to steal a single penny from the country. For that reason, our club presidents are democratically elected and use a limited budget to finance everything.

    The Qatari and UAE leagues are nothing but a steroid-injected version of the Kuwaiti, Jordanian and Bahraini leagues. It's the same old system, but with sheikhs that have a blank check. In fact, dare I say it's Kuwait, Jordan and Bahrain that are more serious about privatizing and becoming really professional, since those countries' leagues run on limited funds and know that they must change the system in order to survive. But the likes of Qatar and UAE will never change their system or privatize because this current condition suits the sheikhs a lot more.

    The only Arab country that has some form of privatization is Saudi Arabia, particularly the southwestern Hijazi clubs (Ittihad, Al Ahli, etc).

    MBH destroyed Asian football, he didn't improve it. Yes, some of his ideas were overall good, but most of his actions were terrible. Kicking Kuwaiti teams out of the ACL was pathetic. We were well on our way to privatize in 2008 if it wasn't for his stupid decision to kick us out. The irony is Syrian, Iraqi and Kuwaiti clubs were always spanking teams from Qatar and the UAE, yet we were the ones getting kicked out rather than their sorry pseudo-professional backsides. In the years that we weren't banned from playing ACL football, we were reaching the latter stages on a more consistent basis. It was a disgrace to football how we were treated. Heck, I bet we can still give their countries' clubs a good hiding regardless of how many Rauls they sign.

    Sorry for getting carried away there. :p I just hate politics and MBH was taking decisions based on political matters. He would've probably kicked the Saudi clubs out of the ACL as well but he knew the Saudis, unlike Kuwaitis, wouldn't stay silent and would skin him as a hunter's trophy. :D
  14. druryfire

    druryfire BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    But Kutsuit, you miss the point. They don't want to play in a competition called AFC Cup, but they want the current AFC Cup teams to play in ACL, so what is the difference here? Just a name.

    I haven't quoted the rest of your statement otherwise we'd have a full page here, but i don't know how you can tell me that the AFC Cup is a joke yet you praise the nations playing in it such as Kuwait, Iraq, Syria. Of course on the other hand,the joke would be to see bigger hitters like potientally Pohang this year playing at that level against say Yangon United which would be a miss match.

    Syrian clubs, their history in ACL football has been poor except for Al Karamah, after that the clubs have generally come bottom of their respective groups

    I do admit, I'd like to see all nations who want to play at the top level of Asian football play their, no matter who it is and believe it will happen once again, but to do this we need extended qualification rounds and maybe a smaller group stage - personally I'd like them to mirror the CAF format if it has to be more than one from a nation or get back to basics, league winners only enter and have a proper champion.

    Saying all this, at some point their will be an election for the next AFC President. I'd like to see someone who can take ideas that people suggest here to take the game forward and bridge that gap that we are currently missing.
  15. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

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    Not quite. They want the Faisalys, Qadsias and Karamahs of the AFC Cup. What they don't want are the load of other teams that don't mean much to them and don't mean much to Asian football. It's understandable.

    It's a joke because Kuwait, Iraq, Syria and Jordan deserve to be in the competition that has the champions of Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Japan, etc. It's a joke because these Iraqi/Syrian/Kuwaiti teams can easily challenge the teams from the aforementioned countries, yet they're forced to play against teams from Yemen and the Maldives instead. And essentially all that's doing is making the Kuwaiti/Iraqi/Syrian clubs poorer, while making the gap between them and their neighbors bigger.

    Precisely what I want to see if I'm ever going to take Asian football seriously. Only the champions of each country should play in the ACL. That means 50 or so countries, therefore 50 or so champions. And since 50 is too big a number for group stages et al, they might as well make it a knockout tournament from beginning 'till end.

    Hopefully, just hopefully. To be honest, I don't think the ACL has a bright future. I just see it as a phase. In the next decade it wouldn't surprise me if the ACL goes back to its mediocrity of the 80s and 90s.
    druryfire repped this.
  16. Nurafshon

    Nurafshon Member

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    Great Idea!!!))
    Yeah, I may help you if I can, but have almost no time till end of August((
    but fill free to ask me questions.
    i myself would like to open an english site about UZB football, but not good in IT systems, so will learn a little bit how to open a site and other staffs after august.
  17. rodrigolei

    rodrigolei New Member

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    I'll support Bunyodkor and Guangzhou Evergrande.
  18. persianfootball

    persianfootball Member

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    wtf sepahan is drawn with esteghlal... 2 Iranian clubs meeting each other again so 1 has to be eliminated. then perspolis gets al ittihad. this is bs.
  19. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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    LOL, there is a cyber war going on between Persepolis and Al-Ittihad fans on Facebook. Some nasty stuff, but hilarious at the same time. The Saudis apparently started it, but they are badly outgunned though, just one of the many Persepolis fans pages on Facebook has more than 183,000 active members, and they're all going after the Saudis on their forums, Facebook pages etc.
  20. nimaa

    nimaa Member

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    you gotta love these wahabis, they're obsessed with us.
  21. al ittihady

    al ittihady Member

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    Guys lets talk some footballl here..Those who are inciting these wars are sleeping on million dollar beds whoever it may be.The common man is getting perished. Lets enjoy the game not discuss politics here.

    Talking about Saudi teams chances in the last 16 I think Hilal will have a easier route to last 16 although I dont want to go them further. Ahli and Jazirah match will be tight contest. No predictions can be done.

    Lastly , Ittihad - Piroozi match will be a neck to neck encounter. Though frankly I beleive no team in favourite again, Ittihad can win this only if they get atleast two early goals plus fans support which they get. Any idea that Piroozo players have played in humid conditions before like they will find in Jeddah.
  22. nimaa

    nimaa Member

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    Perspolis is shit these days. If Ittehad loses than it will be a new low for Saudi football. Losing to Perspolis in your own home, in a knockout round is just lame.

    In other news, Sepahan is spanking SS.
    Sepahan has a foot in the last 8 now.
  23. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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  24. al ittihady

    al ittihady Member

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    FT- Al Jazira 3-3 Al Ahli Jedda
    Ahli advance after winning the shootout 4-2 . In clear picture Ahli deserved to win the match before 90minutes if they had not missed the chances plus some awesome defending from Kamel Mousa allowed Jazirah to score 3 goals.
    Anyways 1 up, 2 still to go.
  25. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    lol Saudi douche bags are not only finger printing Perspolis players, but also eye scanning them. They are just escalating this charade that they started in the first place.
    I wonder what they'll do next time if Iran reciprocates. Do a rectal exploration on each player?

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