11/12 CCL: Toronto FC - Santos Laguna (SF #1) [R]

1) I am not sure what you are basing that on its pretty clear MLS teams have no depth even MLS fans will tell you that. Where exactly is the new magic fountain of talent fueling expansion? Its not as if college soccer is producing a lot more professional caliber players and the NASL's or USL's quality hasn't increased in terms of player development either so where is it? The foreign players coming in aren't providing enough depth several MLS guys should be NASL players and would be if there were less MLS teams.

2) Cienfuegos was more then an ok player he was among the standout Central American players of his time now those players do go to Europe instead of the MLS. I can think of several Central American players in Europe that aren't at Cinefuegos level of play.

You are smoking... Cienfuegos never played in Europe.. and after Magico Gonzalez he might be the 2nd best #10 ever produced in Central America


Back then even Mexicans didn't get much opportunities in Europe... the world has changed... MLS has less talent to tap.. and as result they have gotten worst with their on field performances. MLS teams are barely better than the Central American contingent in the CCL and this at a time when Central American clubs are losing talent at unprecedented rates.


Any ways I don't need to convince you... you believe what you want.

I am not smoking, you just don't know your facts very well. He played for Servette, in Switzerland, and then for Lleida, in Spain.

Yes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

To be fair, he had trials, but never signed a conract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauricio_Cienfuegos

"In the summer of 1993, he had trials with Swiss champions Servette and La Liga side Lleida. Cienfuegos was close to signing with the Spanish side, but ultimately he was not offered a contract, and he returned to El Salvador."

All the teams he played for.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/mauricio-cienfuegos/transfers/spieler_222493.html

In THAT is exactly my point... it used to be that even guys like Luis Hernandez couldn't get a fair shake abroad... and now any young talented Central American can transfer to Europe at a young age... so in general the talent pool (which was never that deep & isn't expanding all that quickly) is being diluted faster than it can be replenished... and that is why the regional leagues have all lost quality INCLUDING Mexico.

It used to be that Mexican clubs owned the Chile, Paraguay & Uruguayan clubs of the world, and getting out of a Libertadores group was a given... now that its no longer the case because the Mexican league has gotten weaker / less competitive on the field..... the only way that FMF could be increasingly successful in the CCL while itself becoming less competitive in CONMEBOL & Club World Cup is if the other regional leagues themselves are getting weaker at a faster rate.. and that is my thesis of what is happening.

Really? Worst team in MLS takes on best team in Mexico, and is only out played in 1 of 4 halves?

There's certainly a gap - but I'd hardly say that these 2 matches are evidence it's widening!

To be fair, many fellow MLSers did claim the gap was closing after 1 match (RSL-Monterrey) last year, so FMFers are just trolling back for that.

Really the GAP is as big as it was when the CCL started.

Now MLS has a pretty solid spot as the #2 in Concacaf since USA and Canada are now doing better than Honduras and Costa Rica in the Coefficients.

LMAO!!! are you trolling me? lol.....I`ll tell Santos they have to win by a 20 goal margin next time lol

oh yeah Monterrey is the best team in Mexico

why not? in the past, many times Mexican teams beat mls teams by 1 or 2 goals.....now its by 4 and 5......gap widening

I`m not trolling....the gap is widening. Or at most the "gap" is as wide as its ever been. MLS teams have not done anything to prove that they are catching up to the FMF....nothing. They have shown that they are better than the Ticos and the Hondurans like you said but haven`t done anything to show that they are "closing the gap" on the FMF. Salt Lake played the final because Concacrap didn`t put a mexican team in their way. And if anyone wants to claim Dallas and Seattle`s victories in mexico as proof.....well I`ve lost count how many times mexican teams have won in the U.S......something we didn`t see too often in the past in the CCC.

and oh yeah....here`s another reason why MLS isn`t catching up......7 trophies


in

a

row.....


mexican

teams

can only be eliminated

by mexican teams.....

total domination!!!!!

??? Not trolling at all. TFC outplayed Santos in Toronto, and certainly matched them the first half down there.

Santos is currently ranked number 1 of 18 teams in the Clausura. Toronto is currently ranked number 19 of 19 teams in MLS - season is young, but only two MLS teams were worse than Toronto last season. All I'm saying is that given that the Mexican league is the better league, and we had a top team playing a bottom team, that the outcome wasn't a big surprise.

If your statistics is such that you think that using a very small sample demonstrates anything then you can prove anything you want. The Mexican league is clearly the better league. But I don't think there's any evidence it's getting stronger.

If you want something unbiased, go into ArsenalMetro's coefficients and graph the US vs Mexico coefficients over the years. That doesn't suggest the gap between MLS is widening. If anything that suggests it's closing (or perhaps that MLS is simply taking the tournament more seriously).

What a crock of logical fallacy... the Mexican league cannot metrically perform better than never being eliminated by a non-Mexican team... there is a ceiling that cannot rationally be surpassed... what has changed is that the MLS has become more competitive against Central American leagues... you are nowhere good enough to even test us.

Further... I will extend my thesis again... based on Libertadores & Club World Cup results over time... I think the Mexican league is getting softer.. and just happens that the MLS (and Central America) is getting worse at a faster rate.

Actually Mexican teams are not very good at wining on the road (relative to their supperior level), this is kind of surprising to me, even Santos with a half-half team lost to Tauro or Metapan in the group.

I think is the mentality of FMF teams, they go get a point on the road and get the win at home.

If the FMF teams had a big team mentality and went on the road looking to win the game, the statistical gap would be even bigger.

I think FMF teams have the players and skills to go on the road and get wins vs all Concacaf opposition, I think is just a matter of they wanting to.

To be fair it is the traditional mindset of Latin American coaches... you see it at Libertadores as well with big name Argentinian & Brazilian teams just playing for a draw away... I think because of the localist refeering & propensity of losing home teams to lose their heads & bring out the hatchets there is a culture of neutralize but don't destroy away.

Nah, they are all just getting to their normal level, based on economics, right now the CCL coefficients are where they are expected to be.

I remember looking at transfermrkt club values for each league and then their coefficient rankings in UEFA and Libertadores and there is a strong correlation (IMO) between the top valued teams having the best coefficients.

Europe league values link

UEFA Coefficient link

Americas leagues values link

Libertadores Coefficient link

To me the coefficient just shows how USA MLS teams underperformed in the early CCL, now they are getting back to a normal level, a little ahead of Honduras and Costa Rica, but still way behind Mexico.

you do know Santos didn`t go all out right? they rested starters and knew that not playing at full throttle they would still advance to the final.

at Santos, Santos dominated the whole match.....Toronto countered

Santos trashed Seattle too. whats your facken point? lol jk

yes there is.

no thanks, 7 trophies in a row man, mexican teams don`t get eliminated by nonmexican teams, a mexican always finishes top scorer.....thats not my opinion my friend...thats a stone cold fact!!!!!

Mexican teams have won in the U.S. a number of times during the CCL era.

Its enough to get the job done so can`t blame them much if they don`t go all out.

Not sure where this is coming from. What have we had now, 5 Mexican teams play in Champions League games in Canada, without a single win and 2 losses?

Sure, the Mexican teams are better - but without a single victory here, it's hard to see that they aren't being tested. Given the cheating Santos resorted to here, and the shear frustration of their players, it's clear they felt tested.

Is it not possible to have a rational discussion without some kind of "we're much better than you" attitude creeping into many people's posts? This air of superiority is tiring.

And that mentality is why the FMF can't get to the next level and why they perform like they do in the FIFA CWC.

Ok lets not get to refs on the game and cheating because any neutral or objective observer will note that most calls in Toronto went against Santos (home teams usually get the benefit of the refs in all leagues).

Whether or not the calls went in Toronto's favour I don't know. Several Santos players should have been yellow carded for simulation, and this didn't happen. I'd say that's evidence that the calls didn't go against Santos.

I know yellow cards for simulation don't happen as often as they should, but given the ref clearly saw the simulation, and waved at the players several times to get up and keep playing, I thought that yellow cards were mandatory. Got off pretty light I thought ...

Just be glad a team like Santos let Toronto shine their shoes & move on. Talk to me when you have actually eliminated a Mexican team in a knock out phase.

In the CCL? or does the old C.C. count?

Also does it have to be a Canadian team (even if it is NASL).

??? Sorry your point is that Santos is a better team? Conceded a long time ago. That Mexican teams are better than MLS teams? Conceded a long time ago. I don't understand to show everyone's whose is bigger ...

mexican teams are going to the next level. Monterrey or Santos is going to have the best CWC performancefor a mexican team since 2000. And Cruz Azul is taking the Libertadores......ok maybe the second part might not come true but the best CWC performance this december you can take to the bank!!!

the legend doing what he does best last night in Libertadores