I agree with you Tom. Just needed to search for reports and digital newspapers to have a better look, than just guide for the "star names" in the winning side.
I should probably find a place for Moore and Beckenbauer 66 in that last group. I am interested in why you rate Moore 66 > Charlton 66. Charlton won the golden ball and balon d'or (obviously these awards don't mean everything, see Puskas golden ball in 54), and them both being English I would not see a major voting bias either way (except for the obvious attacker > defender.)
Again agree with you ... about Moore and Charlton. Per single WC (66) Charlton >= Moore, Even not many recalled Moore 's two GREAT passes that ended up to Hurst to score his winner goals there in the FINAL 66. but in overall WC Moore > Charlton (for he played more tourneys and more consistently at best level).
I get this impresion about Uruguay in the Maracanazo match (readings & highlights): Obdulio and M.Gonzalez carry the weight of the match, any of both could be MotM. Close to them, the better forward was Ghiggia, whom totally destroyed his marker (also netting 1 goal and 1 assist). After them, Maspoli had a great performance, the same as Rodriguez Andrade shutting down Zizinho, the other two defenders were also key in shut down the magic brazilian central trio in the "uruguayan cage". Julio Perez was very important for his workrate. Schiaffino had flashy moments in attack, being decisive. Miguez was too selfish and Moran nulled.
Yeah, I gave a brief answer earlier re: the final game being better for Moore IMO - but even if weighted higher that doesn't mean he was better over the tournament to be fair - Charlton had more stand-out moments before the final but as a player further up the pitch that'd be expected. It wouldn't apply to the Golden Ball award (but is that retrospective?- I get mixed up with those WC awards but think that award was not one given at the time but in a batch decided at a later date by a panel?) but as far as the Ballon D'or goes, although the WC probably played a big part I suppose what Charlton was doing for Man Utd at the time could be a partial factor or big factor. Nothing concrete though, but just a feeling that Moore was right at the top of his game wheras maybe Charlton was flitting between it and a lesser level slightly more (England weren't great attacking wise at the start although he did a lot to kick-start that against Mexico I suppose, and in the final as I say he played decent and had some excellent passes at times and to be fair was being marked by Beckenbauer - I've put the video below again actually; obviously the semi was where he was clutch).
Just as reminder, or to mention the link to you... I guess you have heard about this? http://www.channel4.com/news/dr-henry-kissinger-and-footballs-longest-unsolved-riddle That was declared under oath. So Heinz Alfred ('Henry') Kissinger had maybe a role.... http://www.henryakissinger.com/articles/time050806.html http://en.trend.az/regions/world/ocountries/1232974.html http://www.henryakissinger.com/articles/nw061206.html "Former US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, a long-time friend of Havelange [...]" http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=71527/index.html
Ghiggia was indeed MoM of that final (dribbled, beat GK with a cross to Schiaffino to score 1st goal, and then another dribble run, to beat the GK once again with his "tight angle" shot) The goal that cost host Brazil the 1950 World Cup: Uruguay's Alcides Ghiggia (center) in the 79th minute at Maracanã in Rio de Janeiro. Associated Press FLASH BACK WC1950 ========================================= The Maracanazo: Brazilian Tragedy and the 1950 World Cup The first half ended scoreless. Brazil was 45 minutes from its destiny. The Brazilian winger Friaça put it even closer in the 47th minute. Archival footage shows him taking a pass from Zizinho, shrugging off two defenders and sweeping a low shot in at the far post. All over the country, Brazilians leapt to their feet. The throngs inside the Maracana rumbled the terraces. And on the pitch, Friaça soaked in the moment at the bottom of a dog pile of journalists, he said in a documentary before his death in 2009. Three sportswriters, allegedly covering the game, had run from the sideline to jump on top of him. 1-0. Nineteen minutes later, the party went on hold. Uruguay winger Alcides Ghiggia marauded up the right side in the 66th minute and turned Brazilian defender Bigode inside out. He faked right, then left, then dashed to the goal line to whip a cross into Juan Schiaffino. With a single touch, Schiaffino drove the ball into the top corner. Barbosa, left exposed by his defense, could do nothing about it. 1-1 In the 79th minute, Ghiggia again blazed away from Bigode down the right wing. As he entered the penalty area, kicking up a little cloud of chalk, the first goal seemed to still be on Barbosa's mind. He shaped for Ghiggia to cross again. Footage of the moment, taken from behind the goal, shows a Uruguayan player approaching the back post, the kind of run that forces the keeper into a decision: Cover the narrow angle to your left or start inching right to intercept a possible pass? The cross never came. Instead, Ghiggia drilled a low ball to the near post, the one place a goalkeeper should never be beaten. Barbosa dove left. He caught a piece of it with his arm. Was it enough? Barbosa lay for a moment with his face in the grass. He listened for 200,000 people to give him the answer. 2-1 ....................SILENCE .................................... Later, Ghiggia would often say that " .. only three men had ever quieted the Maracanã: Frank Sinatra, the Pope and me."
Ok! it's just a ranking but can someone particularly his fan enlighten me why ZZ is ranked so high based on the World cup performance? How could he be in top 10 but Rivaldo didn't? http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=264742 Rivaldo _____________________Zidane 14 games ____________________15 games 9 goals_______________________5 goals 4 assists______________________2 assists According to this and the wolrdcup rankings provided by James, if I am to rate a past player I have to, at least, see enough of his footage and judge his performance by myself. Can't rely on other kinds of sources like news papers or columnists anymore.
My take might be two-pronged: a) (Rivaldo not in that game ofc) and b) I'd go along with the idea that for attacking players, the best ones when playing well will likely get plenty of goals and assists even if they are creative and do plenty to build up the play. But I'd say Zidane was an outright midfield player (even if often used as AM in WC's by France) so his role was more comparable to Xavi's than Rivaldo's I think. His ball retention skills were much better than the Brazilian's IMHO. If I was answering the Xtratime post I think those are the main factors I'd concentrate on.
Having reviewed it again recently I'm thinking this was Rivaldo's best WC performance (rated 5/6 by France Football which I think is reasonable - very good performance indeed considering his key contributions added to good control and awareness through the game): Any ideas about other performances to rival it (Belgium 2002 has been mentioned by a few - I will likely have seen all of the games in question or most of them/most of most of them, but just as an idea/reminder)? His worst would probably be that 1998 Final as far as I can think.... I also now completed a top 100 for individual WC tournament performances. Like for the overall WC performances/legends 100 surely many will be at a comparable level to those near the end of the 100. I probably gave the benefit of the doubt to those with one WC or one very good/excellent WC, rather than those with two very good/excellent WC's or excellent games and/or contributions over two or more WC's - those already being named in the overall WC's list anyway (Rivaldo probably prime example among them actually): (51-100).... 1934 Giussepe Meazza (Italy) 1938 Leonidas (Brazil) Gyorgy Sarosi (Hungary) Silvio Piola (Italy) 1950 Zizinho (Brazil) 1954 Zoltan Czibor (Hungary) Julinho (Brazil) 1958 Garrincha (Brazil) Nils Liedholm (Sweden) Kurt Hamrin (Sweden) Roger Piantoni (France) Nilton Santos (Brazil) 1962 Josef Masopust (Czechoslovakia) Amarildo (Brazil) 1966 Gordon Banks (England) Florian Albert (Hungary) Ferenc Bene (Hungary) 1970 Bobby Moore (England) Carlos Alberto (Brazil) Tostao (Brazil) Rivelino (Brazil) 1974 Gzregorz Lato (Poland) Franz Beckenbauer (W.Germany) Ruud Krol (Netherlands) 1978 Ruud Krol (Netherlands) Johnny Rep (Netherlands) Rob Rensenbrink (Netherlands) Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina) Teofilo Cubillas (Peru) Ubaldo Fillol (Argentina) 1982 Gaetano Scirea (Italy) Rinat Dasaev (Soviet Union) Jean Tigana (France) 1986 Jan Ceulemans (Belgium) Jorge Burruchaga (Argentina) 1990 Paolo Maldini (Italy) Claudio Caniggia (Argentina) Dragan Stojkovic (Yugoslavia) Enzo Scifo (Belgium) 1994 Paolo Maldini (Italy) Tomas Brolin (Sweden) Hristo Stoichkov (Bulgaria) Bebeto (Brazil) Yordan Letchkov (Bulgaria) 1998 Davor Suker (Croatia) Brian Laudrup (Denmark) 2002 Ronaldinho (Brazil) 2006 Fabio Cannavaro (Italy) Andrea Pirlo (Italy) 2010 Andres Iniesta (Spain)
Others you might consider. 1934: Oldrich Nejedly 1950: Ademir (I am of the opinion he was equally important to Ziznho, if you are going to include one might as well have the other) 1954: I would personally probably put Nandor Hidegkuti > Zoltan Czibor. Also Jozsef Bozsik and Ernst Ocwirk. 1958: Helmut Rahn 1962: Leonel Sánchez 1970: Gerson (I personally rate hive over all all brazil's attackers except Pele and Jairzinho) 1978: Arie Haan was every bit as good as Ardiles for me, maybe even a little better when you throw in some of those dramatic goals. 1982: Alain Giresse 1994: Krassimir Balakov
Sorry Tom, I knew this could get confusing with my posts scattered. As per this list I quoted on page 4, I put Ademir 1950, Hidegkuti 1954, Gerson 1970 and Giresse 1982 in the top 50 for a single WC although only kept Ademir in the overall top 50 for all tournaments combined out of those: 1950Ademir (Brazil) 1954 Sandor Kocsis (Hungary) Ferenc Puskas (Hungary) Juan Schiaffino (Uruguay) Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary) 1958 Pele (Brazil) Raymond Kopa (France) Just Fontaine (France) Didi (Brazil) 1962 Garrincha (Brazil) 1966 Eusebio (Portugal) Bobby Moore (England) Franz Beckenbauer (W. Germany) Bobby Charlton (England) 1970 Pele (Brazil) Jairzinho (Brazil) Franz Beckenbauer (W.Germany) Gerson (Brazil) Teofilo Cubillas (Peru) Gerd Muller (W.Germany) 1974 Johan Cruyff (Netherlands) Kazimierz Deyna (Poland) Johan Neeskens (Netherlands) Gerd Muller (W.Germany) 1978 Mario Kempes (Argentina) Paolo Rossi (Italy) 1982 Zico (Brazil) Paolo Rossi (Italy) Pierre Littbarski (W.Germany) Socrates (Brazil) Falcao (Brazil) Zbigniew Boniek (Poland) Alain Giresse (France) 1986 Diego Maradona (Argentina) Preben Elkjaer (Denmark) Michael Laudrup (Denmark) Gary Lineker (England) Igor Belanov (Soviet Union) 1990 Roger Milla (Cameroon) Lothar Matthaus (W.Germany) Paul Gascoigne (England) Franco Baresi (Italy) 1994 Roberto Baggio (Italy) Romario (Brazil) Gheorghe Hagi (Romania) 1998 Ronaldo (Brazil) Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands) Zinedine Zidane (France) 2002 Ronaldo (Brazil) 2006 Zinedine Zidane (France) Sorry, it's come out all in bold now after copying and pasting but at least that makes it stand out from the rest of my post I suppose! I had read that Nejedly was the attacking star for Czechoslovakia in 1938 yeah so perhaps he would be worth an inclusion but not sure - hard to tell really. Bozsik I put in the overall top 100 considering I think he played well in 1958 but didn't have the same team around him - I've seen him score a very nice goal anyway. Both him and Ocwirk would surely be close at least for 1954 as a single WC performance too. Rahn I also put in the overall list, and I think you might be right to judge 1958 over 1954 for him if that's what you did, but ofc he was key in the final in 1954 too. I can understand why Sanchez 1962 and Haan 1978 could be considered; I favoured Ardiles's overall play I think but Haan certainly had the advantage in terms of long-range blockbusters and I suppose Amarildo's impact replacing Pele, including in the final would lead me to favoour him over Sanchez and I felt like that tournament maybe had less stars than others (although surely a few more, probably including Sanchez, would be close). Finally, I thought Balakov was good in 94 but remember being more impressed with Letchkov overall and with only 100 places I suppose I'd find it hard to include both. Good ideas anyway and I see where you're coming from. None of them had slipped my mind, but I reckon any would be fair inclusions and like I say a few were in my estimated top 50 with others making the combined WC list too and therefore I might have favoured others with only one excellent WC for this list where unsure.
Well, i can't tell which are the best. But mention some of the sources i read, just let me some time.
You should check Haan's advanced stats as well (there is a thread on it somewhere). He was the top cha nce creator for the 78 I believe, a good ways ahead of Ardiles.
Not a bad list, but IMO your biggest omission is Schiaffino for either WC50 or WC54. He is one of the most important players in WC history, and a WC winner no less, needs to be there ahead of many others who were more "minor" characters in the whole WC story. I also feel giving Ronaldo and Zidane two nods each is only because our usual biases for the recent. In twelve more years most lists will not have either player there two times as their memory fades somewhat. EDIT: My mistake, you did include Schiaffino . By the way, Deyna and Boniek are there, why not Lato?
I agree with Schiaffino's inclusion for 54, but from what I have read here and other places Varela and Ghiggia are every bit as deserving or ore so for 1950.
How do you see Bertoni in WC78? He was unstoppable in the first half against the Netherlands...actually he was stopped only by fouling and scored that sweet goal in extra time. @Tom Stevens
Yeah, to sum up for Tom and pipiolo.... It's a bit disappointing that OPTA's widget has been taken away now but indeed there is a thread by Puck re: chances created. I suppose my counter-argument for Ardiles could be that chances created are not all equal in skill or end result plus he got a very nice assist vs Poland for Kempes's goal and initiated the opening for Kempes's first in the final. I might check France Football's ratings later (know Ardiles's are very good but can't be sure how Haan's compare). But yeah Haan is a good call probably. And re: Schiaffino it is difficult but from what I've read and seen (only mainly the final goal in 1950 and some plays in the Hungary game in 1954) I felt I'd take a punt with a top 20 overall placing and top 40-50 for a single WC in 1954. Probably worthy of at least that no problem, but hard to compare to recent years. One of Zidane's nods was marginal for the top 50 (98) but every time I see him play in the final it makes me feel he pulled such a rating out of the bag at the last minute...but logically if I don't change my mind or upgrade older stars beforehand (or change my mind and upgrade Zidane 98 ofc) the next new entries to a top 50 would knock him off that list of mine. I doubt he'll be too disappointed as his main aim was winning that World Cup lol!
Gonella refereeing the match was a shame. He had a terrible performance as linesman in the Argentina Peru game in the 2nd round. Referees have been taken off final matches for lesser errors. Rather, the Israelian Klein was taken out of the game because Holland was supposedly too close with Israel. So they appointed the Italian Gonella instead (apparently, Italy never had any historical ties with Argentina or whatsoever). http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/jonathanstevenson/2010/05/the_story_of_the_1978_world_cu.html In any case, Gonella shouldn't have led this game, because of obvious errors earlier on in the tournament. And yes, Bertoni had one of his better games in the final match.
Sorry but I don't care who was/should have been the referee and this topic is not about that. And a different referee would have sent off the Dutch left back in the first half.
You yourself start to talk about "only stopped by fouling". So I tell you how it was like. I'm not talking about intangible conspiracies. I talk about obvious things that actually happened on the field. If you weigh end result of a team so heavily in the judgement about a player, so should the 'escapes' like handballs on the goal-line and sending offs - in my opinion. Regardless, lets not forget that Garrincha was actually fairly quiet in the final game. His team only happened to win. But the winning of the trophy is the foremost thing what separates him from Eusebio, in your view.