Can this be construed - in certain circumstances - as a form of trickery?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by HoustonRef, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    Leicester - QPR match. In this situation I would believe it perfectly okay, as did the ref, as an attacker was in the immediate vicinity - more or less between the defender and the keeper.

    Defender kicks the ball (on the ground) to the keeper. The keeper chips it back (in the air) to the defender. The defender heads the ball back to the keeper, who gathers it in in his arms. As I said, an attacker was effectively between them.

    Take away the attacker. Say the keeper rolled the ball to the defender, kicked back to the keeper, chipped to the defender, headed to the keeper, held six or so seconds, rolled to the defender......ad infinitum. I understand the purpose of the "kick back to the keeper" rule was to essentially prevent this sort of gamesmanship and delaying tactic. If the defender kicks the ball up and then heads it to the keeper we call it "trickery." Yes, the actions describe above are different, but the result is the same. Trickery?
     
  2. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This kind of question has been brought about here a few times, and the conclusion is usually that A) this does not fall into what the rules describe as a deliberate trick to circumvent the passback rule, and B) that this will never be used as a time-wasting tactic because it would be extremely easy for the opposition to defend against.
     
  3. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    YHTBT. From a coaching perspective, extremely stupid strategy as a referee could easily consider it trickery -- and it doesn't buy much time anyway. But it won't be ad infinitum unless the opposition is really, really stupid.

    Whether trickery is the best call, will depend on a lot of facts and circumstances -- the closer the defender is to the keeper, the more likely to fall within the trickery rubric (30 yards, headed back, no way to get to trickery; two yards, probably IMO as it is exactly the kind of behavior the rule was designed to preclude and does not meaningfully make the ball subject to challenge); the more the defender uses an "unnatural" play on the ball (getting down on knees, etc.) the more likely to be construed as trickery.
     
  4. Yale

    Yale Member

    Nov 26, 2012
    And yet getting on your belly to pass the ball to the keeper with your head doesn't constitute trickery, as we saw in that one clip from a while back.

    To be honest, I don't really understand what exactly constitutes trickery. But then, I don't really care too much—I'm not especially looking to enforce the passback rule under normal circumstances, so I figure that if I ever decide that I really need to caution for trickery, the circumstances will be so glaringly obvious that I'll know it when I see it.
     
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  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Dropping down on a ball already in play is different from dropping down on a ball being played to you for the purpose of playing back to the GK beause the GK is presently unable to play it.
    Absolutely!
     
  6. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    In this, just as usual, context is king. The defender that played the ball had over run the ball and turned and somewhat lost his balance and thus chose to play the ball in a way that wasn't just the most beneficial way but also, IMHO at least, in what was the quickest and easiest way available to him. And that makes it not a trick, again IMHO.
     
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  7. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    #7 Chas (Psyatika), Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Exactly the same stance from me. You gotta choose your battles, and this isn't one I'm willing to fight.

    I'll caution that one scenario that is specifically mentioned in the text, and shrug my shoulders at the rest.

    Blackpool should worry about the other passback incident in this match (the game-winning own-goal) before worrying about this.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    There is a very fine line between trickery and it's first cousin stupitidy. If a defender want to try the heading routine, and an attacker doesn't close that down in two heartbeats?
     
  9. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    You don't have to make excuses to justify the call. He wasn't even remotely losing his balance. In fact, he even played the ball with his foot first to keep it in play.

    "Trickery" is defined in the laws as one specific action, and Steven Taylor's action was not in line with that definition, so the play is allowed.

    I don't like it, mind you, but again, I choose not to fight that battle. And this isn't something I'm particularly interested in punishing, anyway.

     
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  10. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I'm honestly not trying to make excuses, I just think that Taylor didn't mean (or plan) it as a trick but rather for each touch chose to play it the easiest way he could. And that makes it not a trick IMO.
     
  11. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Errrr? You were saying...:laugh:.

    PH
     
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  12. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    Are you suggesting that @Rufusabc is stupid because he mis-typed a word on his keyboard?
     
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  13. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I am totally confused by all things spell check.
     
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  14. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Mis-typed or mis-spelled?
    Also "it's" is used incorrectly.
    But just a bit of fun. I like to gig Evertonians whenever I can, also Man. U, Chelsea and Arsenal fans!
    (Prepares for angry onslaught!):D

    No need to get all haughty about something that doesn't concern you. Crystal Palace fans not on my radar screen yet, still feel sorry for them, but really cannot stand Pardew your hero. Why anyone in the US would choose that team is beyond me.

    PH
     
  15. That Cherokee

    That Cherokee Member

    Mar 11, 2014
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Just curious if they're is anything spelled out from ifab FIFA or ussf referring to a pass back being only punished when it is wasting time?
     
  16. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Absolutely not. While that was the instigation, a broader objective has also been recognized. The current ATR [12.B.9] advises on these offenses as
    I believe either the prior ATR or a USSF memo more explicitly noted that while time wasting was a key to the adoption, the rule needed to be more broadly understood as to its purpose.

    I don't recall anything in FIFA publications on this.
     
  17. That Cherokee

    That Cherokee Member

    Mar 11, 2014
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Thanks been curious about that since anytime there is a possible pass back play, people seem to bring up "time wasting" as a factor.
     
  18. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I love PH. He actually reads my posts.
     
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  19. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    "You can tell the size of a man by the size of things that bother him"
     
  20. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #20 Pierre Head, Apr 26, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
    I'll be sure to remember that, since my insignificant comments seem to bother you a lot, whereas they did not affect the initial target of them, who unlike you can clearly distinguish fun from real caustic remarks.
    Citation please?

    PH
     
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Someone has to! ;)
     
  22. J'can

    J'can Member+

    Jul 3, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    somewhere there is a hill and we are all going down it on this thread!
     

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