World Cup legends/heroes in history by variety of sources

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by JamesBH11, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #176 JamesBH11, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    you should take off your sunglasses and get out of those "minority" VIEW
    FACT said: Ronaldo was Man of MATCH WC2002 final PERIOD

    Rivaldo got an assist there THANKS to Ronaldo's brilliant moment to steal the ball from MF and counter attack = Ronaldo was ONE MAN SHOW from WC2002 SF and Final - LIVE with that and REMEMBER that!

    1- Brazil NT never need a Rivaldo to pass QF WC at 58 62 670 74 78 94 98 2010 ... OK?
    2- But Brazil NT do need a Pele, Garrincha, Romario and Ronaldo to SEAL the WC for them!
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice idea. Back in my earliest days on Big Soccer there was a thread on this topic I remember. Since then as posted on a different thread and quoted on this one I settled on 50 and had vaguely numbered them to decide but I think I'll leave my post as those 50 choices without order (but for each WC they were vaguely in order from top to bottom - like I say quoted on my first post on this thread IIRC).

    Generally I think I'd now probably have a dozen choices above Baggio 1994, and then others would be arguable/close with Didi 1958 certainly one I'd possibly consider putting ahead too.
    Those 12 choices would include the 6 in your top group plus Pele 1958 who I think I'd have in the top 6 rather than Kempes personally, Jairzinho 1970, Kopa and Fontaine both from 1958 and I'd maybe round off the top 12 with Bobby Moore 1966.
    You've maybe seen this or the full game anyway, but just in case here is Moore's final performance in 1966 which I was so impressed with (have seen some of the other games and I think he was generally playing in a similar way but perhaps not quite so impressively and of course without the assists which you'll have seen anyway for sure):

    You might have seen that the creator of the video posted it on Big Soccer originally too anyway.
    This was overall the best Pele performance probably in 1958 I think:


    For a top 20, I think I'd include Romario and also Hagi from 1994 probably with Beckenbauer 1966 and then I might favour Elkjaer and Laudrup from the 1986 Danish team (but their World Cup was short as they suffered the eventual big loss to Spain in the 2nd round - from what I've seen they still played well enough in that game, and had been excellent until then with Laudrup especially (but also Elkjaer) brilliant against Uruguay which I'll also post below in case you/others haven't seen it or the full game) as well as Zico 1982. If not the two Danes, or only one but not Zico then I'd likely include Ronaldo 98 and B.Charlton 1966 I guess but I'd say the best Ronaldo World Cup would be arguable all things considered and his 2002 would be included if I extended beyond 20 to 31 like you did (probably 13-30+ would be very very close or certainly 17-30+ and then I guess it gets even closer after that):


    I'd find the 1930's WC's and 1950 particularly difficult. It wasn't the case until your great summaries of course, as the WC's were well documented and there is some footage, but I might now have more of an idea about overall performances in each Mitropa Cup than the WC's!
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No Zidane (1998 or 2006) in top 30 PDG? All WCs together you rank him 6th. So just asking.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Hmm, I can't quite remember where I numbered his 2006 provisionally now lol! If I have listed 20 in my above post then I guess soon after the top 20. With 1998 maybe more mid/late 30's to 50 as an estimate but with a really really good final performance outside the goals even. Even though I favoured those with the very best single tournaments, when I did the overall WC performances/legends list I did place him very high and others like Rossi, Muller and also Krol who had two very good WC's also high.

    But I might have put Zidane 2006 a bit higher, or if I didn't I might have to consider whether I should have.:confused::ROFLMAO: I'll get back to you!
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Oh I meant too say to Tom that I'd have Cruyff 1974 in the top two actually. But I already said it to you and elsewhere.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #181 PuckVanHeel, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    I think the strong part about Kempes is that he upped his level in the 2nd group stage and beyond. I think again the FF ratings are accurate.

    1st group stage he has: 4 4 3
    Hardly standing out above his team mates or opponent players

    2nd group stage has: 5 against Poland (besides scoring both goals, even a world class goalkeeper, LOL :ROFLMAO: ); 4 against Brazil; 5 against Peru. In the final a 6 against Netherlands.

    FF seems to give sixes in finals relatively often it seems? 6/6 for both Bonhof and Maier in 1974 final; 6/6 for Kempes in 1978 final; Petit and Zidane in 1998 final; Ronaldo in 2002 final.

    But I think I'd include about five player above Kempes personally. Though I can see and understand it better as Garrincha, who is IMO often too rapidly put in 2nd-4th place range.
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah sorry, my mistake - I had him down as 10th-12th, probably just edged out for best French player in one WC by 1950's players Kopa and Fontaine (and I've put Piantoni in the overall 100 after re-thinking so he'd be even more comfortably top 100 for my single WC's list too).

    There would have been some contradiction otherwise indeed, so well spotted by you. I see now I only added 5 names to Tom's top 6 and it should have been six so it does make sense now!
     
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  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    well spot on ...
    Rossi at 82 was similar case to Kempes in a bit lesser extent *in rating? I guess
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, Kempes' level did seem to increase and he produced his best stuff in the latter stages which probably does count for more (see also Baggio 1994 minus the final, and certainly Ronaldo 02 too I suppose). I might have imagined from highlights that he played even better in the final than I thought when I watched it in full but on the other hand I think the more I've seen of the stages just before it (the Poland game, Peru game especially like you say) the more impressed I was with him generally. Probably his final game should still be viewed as his best and certainly when he was most crucial/clutch.

    They do seem to reward excellent final performances well indeed yeah.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, Rossi in 1982 too of course as a prime example. I think Kempes got himself more involved in the play and tellingly so in the final. Rossi did a bit more of that in 1978 than in 1982 actually.
     
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  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Both are ahead of Ronaldo however :laugh:
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    when you will take off your sunglasses? LOL
     
  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    A lot of the stuff before 1958 is just based off my best guesses. Trying to factor in level on competition, stats, anything I have read, teams of the tournament etc.

    As to Walter vs Kocsis in 54 they are somewhere in that same group 7-19 for me. I do not feel really strong about what order you put them in. My most basic reasoning is that Kocsis was the focal point of the most dominant team in the tourney.

    Felt the same about Zizinho > Schiaffino, Brazil were by far the dominant team of the tourney but lost the final. Uruguay did not have to play very many games to get to the final group. But I can obviously only argue so strongly with the limited evidence available.

    I will stand by Garrincha 62 and Kempes 78 though. They did everything for their teams and won the tournament. I would not say their performances were significantly better than Cruyff and Eusebio, but they lead their teams to the title which counts for something.

    All that being said I would be happy to be talked into or out of certain rankings, my opinions are not set in stone.
     
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  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I am not sure of that ...
    Kempes was a bit LUCKY with Argentina 78 in the 2nd group stage (to determine which team in the final).

    I said LUCK instead of a "controversy" that they won the place over Brazxil for thrashing 6-0 vs Peru ... while Brazil won them 3 -0 ... as (3 goals less ???)
    The DILEMA was that Argentina played Peru in last game and in that game PERU could decide who to advance to the final as they already LOST, and they CHOSE to SLEEP vs Argentina (allow 6goals)

    Sorry Cruijff 1974 > Kempes 78 SURELY in all dimensions
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Very good list but I would say Matthaus WC90 is too high (Hagi in WC94 was better for example). Also Schiaffino deserves a spot in the top 20, leading Uruguay to beat the giant Brazil in the greatest upset of all time is no easy feat. I feel Tostao was better than Jairzinho in WC70 and I would rank Ronaldo WC02 at best at #30, right along with Rivaldo's, but Zico WC82 ahead of both. To be honest, there are too many great individual performances in WC history, and it seems those by players from smaller nations are often unfairly forgotten.

    Maradona WC86
    Garrincha WC62
    Kempes WC78
    Cruyff WC74
    Eusebio WC66
    Rossi WC82
    Schiaffino WC50
    Hagi WC94
    Romario WC94
    Baggio WC94
    Stoichkov WC94
    Pele WC70
    Zico WC82
    Charlton WC66
    Muller WC70
    Beckenbauer WC74
    Zizinho WC50
    Leonidas WC38
    Masopust WC62
    T Cubillas WC70
    Deyna WC74
     
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If you rate Zizinho over Schiaffino for WC50, why not Zico over Rossi for WC82?
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    agree so
    Rossi was a better FW in WC78, but become a "beast" in last 3games WC82
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Respect for your reasoning but if you let end-result or general level of team play (like Hungary54 or Brazil50) weigh so heavily, then it becomes also sense to look at the number of 'escapes' a player needed to achieve the said results. Escapes like the handball of Kempes for example, Garrincha his mysterious suspension and so on (I think I don't have to repeat those well-known instances). Appreciating end-result so heavily is a sensible approach but the counter-part to this is looking at the escapes a player needed on the road to the result.
     
  19. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I would say that Schiaffino in 1950 is hurt by the fact that Brazil is the only good team Uruguay beat in the whole tournament. They played a 1 game group stage vs Bolivia to get to the final group. In the final group they tied Spain (who Brazil crushed) and beat Sweden 3-2 (who Brazil crushed).

    Italy went on to beat more very good teams after their head to head encounter with Brazil (unlike Uruguay) and Rossi continued to play great in those games.
     
  20. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Looking at escapes is a road I would rather not go down. There are to many of questionable authenticity to get caught up in. It seems like every winner had some type of conspiracy on their side (Drugs, Referees etc). That may leave me blind to some real issues but I just do not want to go down that road.
     
  21. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Fair enough, I myself rate Rossi's over Zico's performance (82) and above Schiaffino's or Zizinhos' (50). However, I feel that Schiaffino is somewhat punished for a situation beyond his control at WC50. By the way, unlike Italy of WC82, Uruguay followed up their win with a fantastic performance in WC54, again led by Schiaffino and Varela.
     
  22. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    For the most sources i read, Schiaffino had a better WC'1954 than 1950 (vs Hungary was his best performance and then vs England and 1st round).

    Meanwhile in the Maracanazo match, the men who lead Uruguay to win the match were Matias Gonzalez (nicknamed "the Maracana lion") and obviously Obdulio Varela. And when someone read about it, it tells you than Brazil had the possesion and most chances, but Uruguay won at the counter, building a wall in its goal.
     
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  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    My opinion of best performance per single WC: (*attacker only)
    1- Maradona 86
    2- Pele 58
    3- Garrincha62 = Cruijff74
    5- Muller 70
    6-Eusebio 66=Ronaldo02
    8-Lato 74 = Pele70
    10-Juste Fontaine58 = Kocis 54
    11 Kempes78 = Rossi82
    13- Zizinho 50 = Meazza 34
    15- Schiaffino50 = Leonidas38
    17- Didi 58 = Romario94
    19- Puskas54 = Stabile30

    ... too many to list ...
     
  24. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I might rate 1954 just as high or higher than 1950 for Schiaffino from what I have read. I also don't remember seeing a lot about Varela in 1954 (I know he was excellent in 1950). The other great preference from Uruguay and 1954 was Andrade. The "1950s world cup teams of the tournament by contemporaries" thread gave him some rave reviews.
     
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  25. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    LMAO, Ronaldo's individual performance in WC02 is equal to Eusebio's WC66. That you make two people, you and Ronaldo's mom (maybe), the only ones who believe that.
     

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