The Road from Here

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by triplet1, Apr 7, 2014.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS is such a quirky bastard, that I think for the foreseeable future, outsiders are highly likely to fail.

    But when it comes to teaching players how to play, THAT is something I believe we need to be looking abroad for.

    Another issue is that the Fed has such a culture of mediocrity. Tab Ramos was awful as U-2o coach. What were the consequences of that?
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Oh how I've missed your ability to support your chosen narrative with BS.

    NYRB won the Supporter's Shield last year, their first ever trophy.
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Carolina Railhawks are considering this.
     
    triplet1 repped this.
  4. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    The flip side of this is that if the salary cap isn't going to be loosened very much, there's not much point in developing a major youth program; which might explain the state of many of the programs. On the other hand, most of the big money teams (along with RSL) do seem to be investing here. I wonder if there's a little bit of game of chicken going on. If enough quality products from these teams leave for other leagues, MLS may be forced to deal with the problem.
     
  5. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    That rule isn't that old though -- the great Manchester United class of 1993 included players like Beckham that could not have been signed after the rule change. IIRC, Ferguson was highly crucial of the change.
     
  6. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    I think that's exactly right. A development strategy is meaningless without a retention strategy -- unless the only objective is to sell as many players as possible.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You (and Brad Friedel) emphasize technical training. But I believe very strongly that's not the problem. It's tactical training. The American player's id (athleticism) is pretty good. Not Brazil good, but good enough. The ego (technical training) is a'ight. To me, that's the median leg of the 3 legged stool that I think makes up a good soccer player.

    The biggest weakness of the American player is the superego, the mental part of the game. To me, when you talk about creativity, you're a) right and b) not talking about ball skill.

    The American player, IMO, doesn't spend enough time watching pro soccer when he's a kid. Yes, yes, there's alot more to it, but IMO that's a big, big factor.
     
  8. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    If you had that, you'd at least have the chance to have a really great player. If some awesome kid was playing Idaho, you'd have people all over the world taking a look. The problem is that there aren't these uber talented kids in Pocatello. Ben Spencer was from Albuquerque and had teams from Utah (RSL) and California (Chivas) chasing him and signed a contract in Scandinavia. Some kids develop late, some kids and/or parents are reluctant to take opportunities, but there are more eyeballs than ever looking for kids that want to get looked at.

    No the really, really good kids can sign also sign with clubs outside of the country. I saw Sebastian Lletget when he was a pre-teen and was clearly the best player his age. Ended up in England. Another younger player that stood out among his per group was Joshua Perez who went to Italy. Without a doubt, college isn't ideal. But neither is High School. Yet the difference in outcomes between kids how play in DA and similarly talented kids that play a combination of club and high school hasn't been that significant. Other factors such as personal practice habits, physical development, health, playing time have much greater impact.

    Nice idea, but the reality is that the fields are owned by US soccer and practice field time is contested. Galaxy youth at times have had lower priority than the college students. It is why Chivas had their youth teams in Pomona or Bell Gardens. It is also a real challenge because even if there was a magic coaching bullet that will significantly increase a teens development, when kids are really talented anyone can sign them. Just like the Galaxy can get most talented local kids like Paul Arriola and Mario Rodriguez to switch to the Galaxy, foreign clubs can easily do the same.
     
  9. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Galaxy is on a college campus - I don't think you can get much closer than that. Yet most of their best prospects choose to school elsewhere. If they couldn't convince Zardes to move from a virtually identical school academically located in beautiful Bakersfield, clearly they league has a long way to go to make it an attractive proposition for the typical prospect.
     
  10. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    More to your main point in this post is that another thing Ajax did really well in the day was that they had a great scouting network.

    I've talked to parents of several kids that gone to different countries and a couple had almost no interest at all in having their kids sign locally. Between the gap in the youth team to the first team and the contracts, they were waiting to move as soon as they had a chance. As we've discussed before, the battle to keep better youth players is probably the thing that is going to change the pay structure. They could probably have locked up all the youth National team prospects for the next few years for what they paid Dempsey and Defoe. But in doing so, they would have created an uproar among the rank and file that have actually made it.
     
  11. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Gulanti has set up a culture of getting former national team players work. It is an insular network where who you know is far more important than what you are able to accomplish.
     
  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    The selection of our players at the teen years has gotten better which means that we now know that players who can see a pass or make a run are better than others who can only run in a straight line or kick hard. This is something called vision and is probably innate. It is trainable but some people seem to simply see passes better than others. However we are sorely lacking in dribbling and first touch which are technical aptitudes that need to be trained very early and are not innate. Most American players I would not trust to dribble with the ball surrounded by three of the opposition. As a team we get around this by making sure a player is always available for a pass but you know it's nice to have the option. Players do need to have some early tactical training which encourages risk taking and figuring out problems through technique. I can see some players who have more skills than they actually use because they have been drilled to make the simple play from too early an age. Typically it is best for children to learn creativity and later they can learn how to make the right play.
     
  13. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    In Fairness to Friedel, a large portion of the countries players are pretty technically deficient. Its been rapidly improving, but one can look at almost any team at any level in this country and see players with some very obvious technical deficiencies. But I agree, the issue among advanced teams is becoming tactical. The old saw goes you can't have tactics without technique and the harsh reality is that most of our coaches never played in a good tactical environment. The USSF mandate for a specific 4-3-3 or diamond 4-4-2 is an example of we feel the to dumb things down in this country.
     
  14. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Like everything else it is a combination of innate skill and training. But let there be no doubt, this is a skill that can be vastly improved with good training at a young age.
     
  15. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #140 jond, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Going back to what I said earlier about the EPB situation and our top young prospects signing HG deals prior to turning 18, rather than weighing options when they turn 18, this is the type of potential competition/situation we'll be confronted more frequently with as our youth NTers are being heavily scouted and options are increasing by the week.

    He comes from the country of unlimited possibilities and still decided to follow his dream to Germany: Junior Flores, who played with Dortmund at the U19 Trophy is considered to be one of soccer's big talents.
    The fact that he had many offers from MLS, PSG or Liverpool substantiates his extraordinary talent. He chose Dortmund, however, and Jürgen Klopp can soon be happy about the next creative player. "I wanted to go to Germany by all means. The level is extremely high and the players have been trained very well both technically and physically," gushes the midfielder.
    Flores didn't need much time to get used to his new surroundings, even though the right-footed player has only been in the Federal Republic for half a year. "The atmosphere in the team is amazing. Everybody tries to teach me as much German as possible." He's even learning the club songs.
    Because Flores brings many characteristics that fit perfectly with the 8-time German champion, Klopap has sized him up personally. "I have trained with the first team many times," reveals the Californian. And because "Kloppo" puts a lot of stock in young players, seeing him soon in the Bundesliga would not be out of the question. With his goal clearly in his sights, Flores could also become an option for US coach JK. "Klinsmann is doing a very good job with the national team, but unfortunately we haven't had any contact." But that can change Flores thinks and mentions Julien Green as an example.


    http://www.fupa.net/berichte/aus-den-staaten-in-die-bundesliga-147673.html

    Here's a parts of a recent interview:

    After flying back and forth from Germany for much of the last two years after signing his contract with German side Borussia Dortmund, Junior is happy and determined to succeed now that he’s finally reached the time in which it goes into full effect.

    Forced to wait until his 18th birthday due to U.S. Labor laws before he could begin to earn money and play games for Dortmund, Flores is confident at the beginning of his four year contract with the club.

    “It’s a good contract, for sure. Most of the time I’m with the second team and now I can start playing games also. I just have to put my head down and work hard. That’s what everyone keeps telling me so that’s what I’ll do.”

    “(IMG) was different, the lifestyle and the people I was around. The level was high all the time; everyone was training to have a spot on the (youth national) team. I enjoyed it a lot playing-wise.”

    However, when compared to Dortmund’s Academy, Flores says it’s different.

    “The level is just so much higher. Everyone is older. The higher level you’re playing at means the better you train. You train every day and you get better.”

    When asked about MLS, Junior says there’s still work to be done but it’s getting better every year.

    “I feel like throughout the years the league is improving, especially being able to bring in Henry to the Red Bulls. I feel like they’re improving a lot, every year it gets better.”

    “The intensity is not there (in MLS) as much, but you can see every year it’s improving. The fans are (growing); it’s just a different atmosphere from being in Europe and being in America. As a player, you can see it; you can feel it when you’re out there. MLS wants to improve, I can tell. I feel like they’re going toward the right step.”

    Flores was offered at Generation Adidas contract by MLS, but he refused after being pursued by big European clubs, including PSG and Liverpool. Ultimately, he ended up at Dortmund in a situation that makes him happy and gives him a great stage to showcase his talent.

    http://twelfthyank.blogspot.com/

    I posted this as it's a little window into the mindset of one of our top prospects and given a number of our youth NTers are moving abroad as well, I imagine it's a common thought process. This is the situation MLS not only has to compete against but will increasingly have to compete against as our youth are getting more and more opportunities almost by the week. We've got a '97 in Akale getting heavy interest from a number of big clubs and he's currently weighing his opportunities, Novacovich, a '96 striker just signed with Reading, Yomba, a '96 striker just signed with Atletico Madrid, Shinn, a '99 from Dallas just signed with Santista in Brasil after weighing offers from S America and Europe and a '95 named forward, Koukladas trialing with Wolverhampton. That's just this month and those are all youth NTers.

    I don't really know how MLS should confront this issue right now. USL-Pro is not an acceptable level right now for top prospects IMO, not compared to the reserve setups a number of these guys will find themselves in, where guys like Hyndman at Fulham or Gooch at Sunderland are having a fair amount of success in the reserves. Just as important is the fact that these kids have choices, can visit and train and see which club/system they like best. Here, they deal with much tighter player movement restrictions. Then there's the coaching, as well as competitiveness within a squad which we won't have here until the grassroots level is revamped. A number of these guys have described how much they have to push every single day in training after moving abroad. They're quickly in a position where 5-10 guys playing the same position, just as talented or more talented are all fighting for their futures. It's cutthroat. But, that's what many of our best prospects want.

    When we talk about how to retain our top prospects, I think throwing money at them is a bit short-sighted and much more plays into the considerations. I also don't think keeping our top prospects is the next step for the league as we don't have the infrastructure to do it without losing loads of money. Brings me back to my belief focusing on the grassroots level should be the next step along with hiring better coaches at the MLS and USL-Pro/reserve level. I'd much rather see money go there than overpaying for our top youth prospects as IMO the former will have a larger ROI and lay a stronger foundation for a better league built on domestic talent. It will require patience though. If for example a team was going to pay a guy like Pelosi or Rubin 200K to stay rather than go abroad, I'd argue that 200K would be much better spent on an experienced development coach who can impact and help develop numerous players for that team.
     
  16. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Technical ability and tactical acumen go hand in hand. Can't effectively teach or employ a 4-3-3 unless all involved have a quality touch and can move the ball quickly. Likewise, if you have good technical ability, the poor technical ability and/or poor tactical acumen of those around you will negatively effect you.

    It's not basketball where if you're the best player you can just iso 1v1 every other trip. In soccer you're heavily reliant on both the tactical/technical acumen of those out there with you.

    The Dutch work extremely hard on technical ability at a young age so the players can have success in a 4-3-3 and a fluid, attacking system. Without that, the system/formation falls apart. It's quite arrogant of us actually, to think we can simply change to a 4-3-3 system at multiple levels without confronting the technical ability issue first. As far as MLS goes, the current solution to a real attack minded, fluid system is to import more foreign talent, like Caleb has or Kries did previously with RSL.
     
  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough.

    But in this scenario, the right play is for him to pass the ball to one of his open teammates. That is, if his teammates are smart enough to get open.
     
  18. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    A tactic that is appropriate at U-17 is not appropriate at U-8 because it will hamper technical development. The core reason behind this is because there are two technical aspects that need to be taught at U-6 through U-12. Dribbling and first touch. If you don't have those down by the time you are 12 you will never catch up. Effective passing on the other hand can be taught at a later stage.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When I coached first and second graders, I taught them never to be the 3rd player in to defend. We played 4v4, and I used to say, trust your teammate!

    And by the time kids are in 3rd grade, they should be able to employ a rudimentary passing attack. Before they can do division, their brains aren't developed enough for this. But by 3rd grade, they can do division, and they can execute some passes. (My 2nd grade girls could actually pass round the triple teams, but that was a pretty advanced group. I just got lucky.)

    I'm not just being pedantic here. If kids aren't learning how to pass the ball out of pressure until they're U-13, then you get the shit we see with our U-17s, where all we can accomplish is see stationary player, pass to stationary player. Repeat until we turn the ball over. Our U17s are/were essentially a club team, are pretty damn technical, but since they can't pass into and run into space, they're incredibly easy to defend. And you see the same thing up through MLS even to the senior Nats.
     
  20. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I believe those tactics are completely correct for the grade levels you are talking about indeed I teach those same things. However, I have seen a few too many coaches reprimand a player for "selfish", "risky" dribbles. At the elementary levels kids need to be free to take risks to fully develop their ball control potential. This does not mean that we don't teach passing attacks, defensive positioning or off the ball movement. Indeed, passing attacks are enhanced by having players that are capable of keeping the ball under pressure. However, it may be as you said that the current generation of U-17s have not been taught off the ball movement. Personally it worries me a lot less than a generation that can't keep possession under pressure. This is a problem for the whole of the late 80's generation.
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had a standing offer that any player who pulled off a stepover or a behind the leg dribble got a dollar from me. :D We worked on "moves" (as opposed to "kick past inferior athlete and beat her to the ball") alot in practice.

    My daughter collected the dollar. :D :thumbsup:

    In all seriousness, I didn't OVERemphasize it, but I taught them the best play was to dribble past someone if 1v1, pass if 1v2. As a general principle, not an iron rule of life.
     
  22. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This sounds like good coaching. However, as a fellow coach let me suggest to you a third possibility. Let the player with two defenders hold on to the ball until the free player makes a run into empty space created. Not necessarily getting past the players mind you but holding on to the ball until the best passing situation is created. For this you also need to teach keeping the head up when dribbling.
     
  23. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
  24. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
  25. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #150 jond, Apr 25, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
    Today:

    Mukwelle Akale is headed to Spain to sign a precontract with Villarreal on Monday, multiple sources told TopDrawerSoccer.com on Friday. The precontract with the La Liga side is necessary, as Akale does not turn 18 until January 18.

    The U.S. U18 Men’s National Team midfielder is one of the most skilled prospects in the youth national team structure. With sublime ball control, excellent field vision, and a knack for scooting around larger opponents, Akale has become a focal point of the offense while playing as the attacking midfielder with the youth national team.

    When creativity in the middle of the pitch is one of the areas MLS has a lot of work to do, I do think it hurts the league that our more creative youth NTers are going abroad. I'd say they're more important to the league going forward than defenders or forwards. The other side of the equation of course is, if you're a creative player, you'd want to find a league/club where your creativity will be put into a position to excel, which usually requires being surrounded by high technical players and a fluid, tactical formation and to do that requires options and freedom of movement.

    It's actually an interesting conundrum we're facing right now. We've got more NTers back in MLS than we've had in awhile, but I think that lends to a false sense of the league's current ability to keep, retain or bring home our top talent, some of which like Edu/Parkhurst came back due a real lack of options. The older generation, 24-30, we've got more talent home stateside than we've had in awhile but the younger up and coming generation is leaving in numbers never before seen. I'd argue in terms of bringing back talent, there's really not much more we can bring back. Jozy we could. Beyond that? Maybe Mix ends up in NYC but he's not even starting regularly in Norway right now. So we're going to go up against wall quite soon in what talent we can bring home in terms of NT talent(we have no other Clint's or Bradley's abroad) and then when we look at the next generation where the backbone of the league will come from, those guys are flocking elsewhere, especially the creative players which IMO would garner more attention, more excitement and larger transfer fees when ultimately sold.

    IMO, bringing home NT talent is a short term, short sided strategy. We don't have much more talent to back and it's the next generation's talent which is leaving which would be more important to the league 5-8 years from now. How to fix that is complicated though and requires attacking the issue on multiple levels.
     

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