Just to clarify: I made a post thinking that the Netherlands vs Italy game of late 1974 ended a negative streak, but that was not entirely correct. Hence I deleted it. The negative streak was: 28/09/1958 was the last time the Netherlands overcame a deficit in a away match. Belgium scored the 1:0, and also came 2:1 ahead, but Netherlands won 2:3. Since then Netherlands was unable to win an away match once they came behind (meaning: either loss or a draw if the opponent came ahead somewhere in the match). This negative streak was ended at 25/09/1974 against Finland in Helsinki. Finland scored the first goal but Netherlands won 1:3 (euro76). See: http://www.voetbalstats.nl/opstelnedxi.php?wid=343
The soccer.nostalgia blog has uploaded some articles about the 1980 Mundialito (Mini World Cup) this week. That tournament 'celebrated' the 50 years anniversary of the World Cup. Of course, it was no true World Cup, but maybe interesting to show the France Football ratings of world champion Argentina in the tournament (ratings of final games aren't uploaded but the Argentina games happen to be complete). Argentina vs Brazil 1:1 Fillol - 5/6 Olguin - 4/6 Galvan - 3/6 Passarella - 3/6 Tarantini - 4/6 Gallego - 3/6 Ardiles - 4/6 Maradona - 4/6 Bertoni - 3/6 Diaz - 4/6 Barbas - 3/6 Carlos - 3/6 Edevaldo - 4/6 Oscar - 4/6 Luisinho - 5/6 Junior - 5/6 Cerezo - 4/6 Batista - 4/6 Renato - 4/6 Tita - 3/6 Socrates - 3/6 Ze Sergio - 5/6 Argentina - West Germany 2:1 Fillol - 5/6 Olguin - 3/6 Galvan - 4/6 Passarella - 5/6 Tarantini - 4/6 Ardiles - 3/6 Gallego - 4/6 Maradona - 4/6 Bertoni - 3/6 Diaz - 4/6 Kempes - 5/6 Schumacher - 4/6 Kaltz - 3/6 KH Forster - 4/6 Bonhof - 5/6 Dietz - 4/6 Briegel - 5/6 Magath - 5/6 H. Muller - 4/6 Rummenigge - 5/6 Hrubesch - 4/6 Allofs - 3/6 Taken from here (I typed it over so it'll not be lost): http://soccernostalgia.blogspot.com/2014/04/articles-on-teams-and-events-part-29.html France Football ratings of the 'real World Cups' can be seen here of course: http://www.everyfourthyear.com/
BRAVO .... very well spot on, Comme Let me correct, it was partly "placar" fault to have wrongly credited (or discredit) Worldsoccer magagine in that TOP50 WC best players, but SPORTS & ENTERTAINMENT magazines Sports & Entertainment > Magazines > Special Issues > 50 Greatest World Cup Players 50 Greatest World Cup Players
what did Baggio, Jaizinho do to be "possibly" better rank then Ronaldo? In fact those players never win any individual awards in WC and ironically Ronaldo LEAD in the number of awards WC level at TOP? - Individually: Ronaldo (WC98 goldenball+Bronzeboot + WC02 Silverball+Goldenboot) >Jairzinho (goldenboot Wc70) >> Baggio (silverball+silverboot tied with 4players) - Team winning Ronaldo (WC + WCfinalist) > Jairzinho (WC+ 3rdplace) > Baggio (WCfinalist) - Look close, Both Jairzinho and Baggio FAILED at WC74 and WC98 ... Ronaldo (almost) never failed (except his form/fit defy him - like WC06 - but even so, he was able to win another Bronze boot so easy
Baggio in WC94 is far better than Ronaldo in any of his WC performances. In fact, both played three WCs and I would rank them as follows: Baggio WC94 Ronaldo WC98, Ronaldo WC02, Baggio WC90 Baggio WC98 Just like Romario, Baggio's peak is clearly better than Ronaldo's.
I told you to sit back and enjoy the reading repeat none sense does not make you look good LOL Did not you know Baggio was CHOKED in his group, and then CHOKED big time in the final ? Baggio in a sense was like Rossi, with a WONDER form in 3 games WC94 and that was IT TAKE off your sunglasses Blue bros, look CLOSE to all the list (8 out there) and try to see your Romario and Baggio in 8xTOP10 (Romario was there once)
Baggio started slowly but then was incredible in all the elimination matches, including the final where despite being injured he was the only attacking threat for Italy. His peak at WC94 is way better than Ronaldo's at any WC, for sure.
slowly = CHOKE (WC only had 7games and how many games did he need? 10? LOL SURE = take off your sunglasses ===================================== Fact: 1- R9 won goldenball WC98 while Baggio choked there 2- R9 scored 2 winner to win WC2002, Baggio choked in WC94 final ENOUGH said
Using numbers to estimate the players' tournaments I'd go with something like: Jairzinho 70 - 8.5 Baggio 94 - 8.25 Ronaldo 98 - 8 (could have been higher with a great final, so unlucky to suffer his fit and make that impossible) Ronaldo 02 - 7.75 (OPTA stats might suggest better, but I think generally his level was widely applauded because he'd been out so long and still came back to be key to the WC win...but in a very good team...the best of the WC generally considering the poor form of France and Argentina which wasn't expected) Baggio 90 - 7.5 (but didn't play every game) Jairzinho 74 - 7.25 Baggio 98 - 7 Jairzinho 66 - 6.75 to 7 Ronaldo 06 - 5.5 (but I wouldn't weight this heavily - his goals keep the score 'respectable' probably as as far as I recall he didn't shine generally at all during the tournament) But on peak form (at club and/or NT level) I'd say maybe more like: Ronaldo - 9.25 Baggio - 8.75 to 9 Jairzinho - 8.5 So I think Jairzinho (though he's the most difficult to assess) probably played about to his max level, albeit in a legendary team in 1970. His general play was very good through the tournament I think, and his goals output was great from an attacking right wing position with some exceptional goals among them. I don't think Ronaldo was playing quite at his peak in 1998 even before the final but he was still a reason his team got there and did have some very good moments with goals and link play, assists too. I weighted the best tournaments higher, as Baggio's averages above would beat Jairzinho's I suppose. Baggio, like Ronaldo probably even had more capabilities than he could show in 1994 but he still was very much clutch for Italy with some great goals (efficient and skilful) - not the best of his career but still excellent finishes.
well you're the ONLY one saying so and all facts out there are totally different ... Baggio was so OVER RATED with his 3 wonder games at WC94 (and let me repeat WC had 7games total) - ================================================== Lastly, you guess is just your speculation (about OPTA and Ronaldo) , in fact: FIFA before WC2010 put up few big names in WC great legends as EXAMPLE for younger generation to follow: LEGENDS SET STANDARD (at WC): 1- FW Ronaldo WC02 with 8goals/7games over 28shots, and 13 chances creation to the team Muller WC70 with 10goals+3ass/7games as highest in FW category 2- AM/MF Maradona super WC86 with 5goals+5ass in 70% of team goals Cruijff set the standard in creation 28 chances at WC74 Lato and Beckenbauer also got mentioned here .... 3- DF: Thuram scored goals and won >75% of duels in defensive zone Desailly with 34 interceptions and 132 recoveries to cover the GK 4- GK: Buffon with only 2goals allowed WC06 (nearly ZERO= one own goal and one was a PK) ================================================== Neither Baggio nor Jairzinho set any standard .... (in fact Jairzinho was credited for the only player to have socred in all 6 games WC) - let me repeat Baggio scored in 3 out of total 7games WC94 and ZERO assists how possibly he socred 8,75 ? in what standard??????? Ronaldo HELD THREE WC RECORDS: - 15goals as current topscorer all time - 11 scoring games as most games scored - 8goals as highest record in 24-32 teams WC level since 74
Well, you're right it's just my opinion/estimation. Maybe others would see it similar or maybe not but I don't want to fall out about it mate. I don't think we ever really saw the 100% fenomeno at a WC (as compared to his best goals/form/games for Barcelona/Inter/Brazil during 97 rather than 98). You were right that Rossi didn't have the same attributes as Ronaldo, but I do think the 'new' Ronaldo as of 2002 WC was more comparable to a Rossi or Muller in some ways (excellent finishing, but not as mobile or involved from as deep as he used to be). He still had more ability to run with the ball probably (and at Real Madrid afterwards) but not the same as pre-injury Ronaldo. In some respects, maybe his game improved even (debateable but performances like away vs Man Utd where he got the standing ovation showed some clinical finishing and maybe he'd improved in that aspect as he matured).
Ronaldo also had poor matches at this WCs. In fact in WC06 every match except against Australia he was poor. In WC98 he was poor against Norway (beat by a very small team), average against Denmark and invisible in the final against France. In WC02 again poor against Belgium and did nothing against England. He was lucky to play against a team (Germany) that had no business being in a WC final. Other than against Chile (98) and Germany (02), Ronaldo has no other outstanding matches to rival Baggio's against Bulgaria (94), Spain (94), Uruguay (90) or Chile (98).
I did it more from my own ideas than referring to these but here are the France Football ratings for each of those tournaments (except Jairzinho 66 - I mainly remember that he had a good/promising start to the Hungary game that year as a LW - mainly I'd recommend that game which was/is available on Youtube in full 90 minute form as it was a great game and Hungary played fantastically and scored some special goals though...but Tostao's was excellent too to be fair): Marks out of 6 ofc: Jairzinho 1970: Czechoslovakia 5, England 6, Romania 5, Peru 4, Uruguay 5, Italy 4 = avg 4.83 Jairzinho 1974: Yugoslavia 4, Scotland 3, Zaire 4, E.Germany 3, Argentina 4, Holland 4 = avg 3.67 Baggio 90: Czechoslovakia 5, Uruguay 3, Ireland 3, Argentina 3, England 5 = avg 3.8 Baggio 94: Ireland 3, Norway (subbed 22mins- no rating), Mexico 2, Nigeria 4, Spain 5, Bulgaria 5, Brazil 3 = avg 3.67 Baggio 98: Chile 5, Cameroon 3, Austria (on as sub - no rating), France (on as sub - no rating) = avg 4 (from 2 ratings) Ronaldo 98: Scotland 3, Morocco 4, Norway 3, Chile 3, Denmark 4, Holland 4, France 2 = avg 3.29 or 3.5 without final Ronaldo 02: Turkey 4, China 3, Costa Rica 3, Belgium 4, England 3, Turkey 4, Germany 6 = avg 3.86 Ronaldo 06: Croatia 1, Australia 2, Japan 4, Ghana 3, France 2 = avg 2.4 Obviously it's only one source and not the gospel. And maybe later stage games could be weighted higher. Overall I feel like I might be a bit more generous with Ronaldo's 98 marks actually.
Stop saying in fact when you NEVER used fact in your debate. FACT at WC06- Ronaldo just returned from injuries and carried 15lbs extra with only 3 games as fitness (against Brazil youth and Amateur teams in Austria) so of course he required more games (first two games in group) to get slowly back to his form (even FAT) Now, for your info, in case you only watched WIKI results: Ronaldo was nevr "poor" vs Belgium and England. He created a few chances (vs Belgium) but some guys failed to score. VS England he was well marked by Beckham Rio and Danny Mills = so that Rivaldo had more space (that Ronalinho passed to his 1st goal, instead of Ronaldo less space ) Last FACT: Ronaldow as always there in all 8 lists of TOP10 best WC players = LIVE with that ============================================ Bottom line, TAKE OFF your sunglasses and you might see betetr LIGHT outhere LOL
as I always say: One can say " in my opinion, I prefer Baggio (or Romario) performance at WC to that of Ronaldo" FINE by me but there is NO DATA, no FACT to back that up as a "real case" - NOT that I know of ...or should I say none exsistence. There are few greats that I agree they were better WC performers then Ronaldo: Pele, Maradona, Cruijff, Muller Garrincha - and arguably Beckenbauer, Zidane (for they played different position then R9), and that was IT Ronaldo was a sure TOP10 best WC players Both Baggio and Romario were in TOP10-25 ========================================= Look at Zico's humble opinion about who was best player behind Pele and Garrincha in Brazil: Placar asked: "... many polls were made and the final contestants are between Zico and Ronaldo. What do you think?" ZICO: " well ... a guy who came out on top of 2 consecutive world cups and despites of many injuries, he won one for his country so he should deserve it. Ronaldo for me" Asked Ronaldo same question ... Ronaldo: " well ... Zico was always my idol since childhood, so I must say Zico"
Give me one good reason why I shouldn't rate Roger Milla's WC90 performance above Ronaldo's in WC02, cause I can't think of one. @JamesBH11
there are MILLION reasons not one ... GOOGLE it. ============================== now much less ridiculous then yours, but using similar approach, let me ask Give me one worse reason that Schilacci90, Stoitchkov94 , Suker98, Forlan 10 were worse than Baggio 94? (forget about Muller ... Ronaldo Romario Pele Maradona Garrincha .) Those names were all great performers but could not win WC just like Baggio 94
So you couldn't give me one good reason, as I thought. As for your question, Romario 94 = Baggio 94 = Stoichkov 94 > Ronaldo 98, Schillacci 90, Suker 98 > Ronaldo 02, Forlan 10.
@Pipiolo Here is the full link of FIFA before WC2010 ... about the "legends who set standards at WC level" (try to look for baggio and romario OK?) http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/worldcup/southafrica2010/news/newsid=1223190/index.html (as Goalkeeper) Players returning to a FIFA World Cup™ for a second or even third time inevitably set out with the aim of doing better than when they last appeared on this illustrious stage. However, one player preparing for South Africa's glamour event knows it will take a superhuman effort just to match his achievements at Germany 2006. Four years ago, Gianluigi Buffon conceded just two goals behind Italy’s parsimonious defence – one an own-goal, the other a penalty – and overall saved a remarkable 93 per cent of shots on his goal as Italy marched towards their fourth FIFA World Cup success. Predators to the fore (forward) O Fenômeno is the greatest all-time scorer at FIFA World Cups, with 15 goals in total. Eight of those came in Korea/Japan, helping his country to a record fifth crown. His 9.87 ranking was earned through a competition-high 28 shots, while he also set up an impressive 13 goalscoring chances for team-mates. Ronaldo’s super eight in 2002 was the most in a single tournament since Muller struck double figures for Germany in 1970. With an average of almost 42 shots per match, Mexico 1970 was the most attack-minded edition of the 11 staged since 1966 and Muller was involved in 13 goals overall. He scored 10 and assisted in three others - more than any other player has managed in any single FIFA World Cup between 1966 and 2006. Of those ten goals, four were headed, another tournament-high, while the German also became only the second player to bag hat-tricks in consecutive matches at a FIFA World Cup after Hungary’s Sandor Kocsis in 1954. El Diego excels (midfield) Just two decimal points behind Cruyff is Diego Maradona, who dominated Mexico 1986 with a score of 9.80. The Argentina superstar scored or assisted in 71 per cent of Argentina’s goals but it was Maradona’s dribbling prowess that truly caught the eye. He embarked on 90 dribbles in the competition, three times more than any other player, and 19 of these came in the momentous 2-1 quarter-final victory over England, the most ever attempted in a single FIFA World Cup game between 1966 and 2006. Gregorz Lato was another midfielder to score well, finishing with a 9.81 Castrol Index rating for Poland in 1974. His seven-goal haul included the winner against Brazil in the Match for Third Place, raising his goals-to-shots conversion rate to 28 per cent. Stand-out defenders include the French pair of Marcel Desailly and Lilian Thuram, who rose to the challenge when their country were tournament hosts in 1998. Desailly made 38 interceptions and 132 recoveries for a score of 9.71, while Thuram's mark of 9.78 owed a great deal to coming out on top in 75 per cent of his 50/50 duels. ....
And a quite easy route to the final. Only quality opponent was England but was that a particularly good team? Anyway, there's some discussion about whether Ronaldo or Rivaldo was better in 2002. I add Ronaldinho to the comparison too (as for as match ratings are concerned). France Football ratings: Ronaldo 4 3 3 4 3 4 6 Rivaldo 4 4 3 5 5 4 4 Ronaldinho 2 4 - 4 0 - 4 Rivaldo wins Kicker ratings: Ronaldo 2,57 Rivaldo 2,64 Ronaldinho 2,60 Ronaldo wins Looking at stats of Ronaldo and Rivaldo: Ronaldo: 110 passes in 552 minutes (accuracy: 70.0%; opponents half: 65.1%) Rivaldo 215 passes in 611 minutes (accuracy: 82.8%; opponents half: 73.7%) [note: 215 passes in 7 games isn't a lot] Rivaldo wins. Ronaldo: 13 chances created in 552 minutes Rivaldo: 13 chances created in 611 minutes Ronaldo wins. Ronaldo: 8 goals (0PK) 0 assists Rivaldo: 5 goals (1PK) 1 assist Ronaldo wins. Ronaldo attempted 7 crosses, 42.9% accurate Rivaldo attempted 7 crosses, 28.6% accurate Ronaldo wins. Ronaldo tried 28 shots, 67.9% on target Rivaldo tried 22 shots, 50.0% on target Ronaldo wins. Ronaldo won 14 fouls, conceded 3, in 552 minutes Rivaldo won 18 fouls, conceded 9, in 611 minutes [no verdict] Ronaldo won 44.3% of duels [31/39] Rivaldo won 53.0% of duels [53/47] Ronaldo won 40.0% of aerial duels [2/3] Rivaldo won 73.7% of aerial duels [14/5] Defensive contribution of both is almost non-existent (stat-wise) but slightly better for Rivaldo. Ronaldo: 9 recoveries, 100% tackles won [4/0], 0 clearances, 1 block, 5 interceptions Rivaldo: 29 recoveries, 100% tackles won [7/0], 6 clearances, 1 block, 7 interceptions Up to others to make the call.
How about ranking individual world cup performances. For me 1. Maradona 1986 2. Garrincha 1962 3. Kempes 1978 4. Cruyff 1974 5. Eusebio 1966 6. Pele 1970 From here is get harder for me they are all really close. 7. Muller 1970 8. Didi 1958 9. Kocsis 1954 10. Fontaine 1958 11. Deyna 1974 12. Meazza 1934 13. Rossi 1982 14. Jairzinho 1970 15. Romário 1994 16. Stoichkov 1994 17. Ronaldo 1998 18 Baggio 1994 19. Ronaldo 2002 Now another group a step down 20. Leonidas 1938 21. Matthäus 1990 22. Walter 1954 23. Beckenbauer 1974 24. Charlton 1966 25. Kopa 1958 26. Zizinho 1950 27. Ademir 1950 28. Masopust 1962 29. Suker 1998 30. Sarosi 1938 31. Hagi 1994
nice stats and analogy Puck However, put it in brief, many given credits to Rossi (6goals/3games) and Baggio (5goals/3games) but they FAILED to see a Ronaldo 8gaols/6games and did more besides. Now back to Ronaldo vs Rivaldo at WC2002, no need to analyze deep , it was so CLEAR: - who was MoM of SF to lead the team to Final? Ronaldo - who was MoM of Final to deliver the WC penta? Ronaldo - who won Silverball (bar the gifted Goldenball to Kahn) at WC02? Ronaldo ONLY denials * (Romario fan or Ronaldo haters) would be BLIND to that! Enough said!
On what are the 1954WC and earlier ranking based? How do you separate Walter 1954 from Kocsis 1954 for example? On what is the inclusion of Zizinho 1950 based but exclusion of Schiaffino? Other than that, IMO you really overrate the level of play by Garrincha in 1962 (same for test-refuser Kempes in 1978 but that's more understandable). I'd say Suker in 1998 was on a similar plane as Ronaldo in 1998, as most sources also show (La Stampa, France Football, kicker).
MOM is a popularity contest held by FIFA. The right questions to ask are: Who was better against England? Rivaldo Who was better against Turkey? Ronaldo Who was better against Germany? Rivaldo Seems like Scolari agrees as posted by @gilmour86.