Who Is The Greatest Dribbler Ever

Why do you put the "=" sign as well? Why isn't Messi's club career categorically better than Ronaldo's?

 

In your standards you put WPOY and Ballon D'Or above league titles and league top scorer titles.

While in my honest opinion league and top scorer titles means a lot more.

I rather become the best scorer of my league and help my team win the league then getting commercialised individual voting awards like Ballon D'Or etc.

In that respect Messi>>Romario>>>Ronaldo!!!!

@Pipiolo

 

>= means slightly ....

Messi in his fan eyes was surely "much better' then R9 or R11, but not to me ... just slightly

Plus, R9 played for much worse teams in Barca97 and Inter98, then post-injured he was caught in a "dyfunctional galacyicos" team .... just BAD choices in his career.

Romario had (unfairly) too short career in high level club football to say the least in them (fact)

 

We could say then that by your own principles R9 in his fan eyes is much better then Messi and Romario. Can't we?

You are admitting this principle above with your own words.

But he could still win top scorer of his league but didn't. Playing for sub par teams won't limit a striker from winning pichichi or Serie A top scorer. 3 top scorer titles is too poor for a player of his status. Second tier strikers have managed to win Top Scorer of their respective leagues while playing for worse sub par clubs. It's just a pathetic excuse.

In my opinion Dutch Eredivisie of the late 80's and early 90's was no lower league. Do you forget that PSV and Ajax both won Champions League in late 80's and early 90's. And do you forget that Sao Paolo and Vasco beat Barcelona and Manchester United? Any European and North American who claims Brazilian league to be lower is just a snob!

And to put things in perspective 4 out of 7 years Romario played in Europe he won more league and continental titles then Ronaldo while playing for bigger Clubs.

@Pipiolo

 

You guys sang the same old song ...
I said Batistuta, Zola, Garrincha , Banks Moore and even Maradona did not win many leagues so? that did NOT alter any credits they had in football.
win team trophies = bettr teams won PERIOD)
1- Look at how great Messi still is now, and see if Barca could possibly win anything at all? SO?
2- guys like Iniesta Pedro, Puyol or Xavi ... were lucky to live in the greatest era of their Barca team and they won many trophies (from club to country) , that did NOT imply they were betetr than R9 or R11 to the least


Now back to the three greats Barca legends
- in term of all rounded talent : Messi >= R9 >= R11
- in term of a threat to any defense: R9 = R11 >= Messi
(again >= means better but not by much)

 

I would say Messi >= Romario > Ronaldo. And I agree that the Balon D'Or and such are very commercialized awards. Usually, the players with the biggest endorsements rank near the top.

The "Galacticos" of Real Madrid were not dysfunctional, they just had a short peak as most of them were approaching 30 by 2002 (Zidane, Figo, Beckham) plus some bad luck in certain matches. They were also coached in the first few years by Del Bosque, a winner coach. Overall, they had at least until 2005, a team that could win the CL but just got beat by someone in every attempt.

I wouldn't say Romario's career in high level club football was short, he played at PSV for four seasons, plus two at Barcelona, and a handful at Flamengo and Vasco da Gama, top sides in Brazilian football.

Agree, the Eredivisie in the late 80s and 90s was fantastic, with some memorable sides coming out of it: PSV Eindhove (87-94) and Ajax (94-03).

 

I said both R9 and R11 are great and in my TOP5 best striker all time, but R9 was slighly better for he was more all rounded and more FLASHY = beautiful football

Messi is still in top form and he is on course to be better then both R9 and R11 ... very very likely

 

But what about top scorer titles james?

What about winning a strikers most prestigious award which is the be the best scorer of his league?

Messi and CR7 are battling each other every year for the pichichi and the people love it.

Top scorer titles is relevant for any discussion involving two striker like R9 and R11

And Messi being forward playmaker beats both of'em in top scorer title.

Now between Romario and R9, the former showd to be superior in this category while the latter was averaged at best.

So what do you have to say about this category. Cause I have been asking you this question a million times since Summer last year and you never answer me this question.

You asked for proof while you don't collaborate with me when I ask you a question.

again,

What about TOP SCORER titles?

 

Going back to Rivaldo... The man doesnt get the credit he deserves in these forums or anywhere else... He is mentioned but not discussed enough.. People forget how good he actually was and how much brazil could do with a player like him now... The only reason rivaldo gets overlooked is surely down to his history.. I can remember the barca fans criticising him when he had an injury and saying he was saving himself for the selecao, and i can remember brazil fans abusing him because they reckoned he saved his best form for barca !! There was a world cup qualifier in 2001 against colombia ( i think ) and the abuse and insults reached fever pitch, rivaldo had things thrown at him.. Also brazil fans never seemed to forgive him for his stray pass at the atlanta 1996 olympics.. Another reason rivaldo was unpopular is because of his play acting against turkey .. But rivaldo was the main man for most observers in 2002.. Would brazil have beat belgium without him ? .. Would any other player in that brazil team apply such a great finish to ronaldinhos run and pass against england to bring the scores level. ( it was a beautiful ice cool finish (Criminally underrated goal ).. And what about that hatrick against valencia for barca ! Pele maradona R9 romario or messi have never scored a better hatrick than that ( not that i ve seen anyway and i ve watched alot of football ) ..

 

many times you say that you don't mind someone preferring Romario for his style but that to claim he's better is nonsense, remember?

Well it follows that you are subject to you own statement cause in the lines above in your previous comment you are (indirectly) admitting that you prefer Ronaldo for his aesthetics. So i could turn your own stick on you and say " i don't mind you preferring Ronaldo for his aesthetics as long as you do not say Romario is better cause that is nonsense". You see, the coin has two sides.

And since you are talking about aesthetics here, know that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.

I have watched all Romario's goals and skills in La Liga 93/94, and I must disagree that R9 goals and skills in La Liga 96/97 are better.

You can watch all Romario and Ronaldo goals and skills for their respected Barca years (both peak time) and it is illogic to say that Ronaldo produced more beauty in his football. Again, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholders so you cannot question me for choosing Romario as a more beautiful player. Because that would break your own rules you just stated in your post above. Can't you see you rhetoric?

Now, since you love quoting high profile people endorsing R9, let me do the same for Romario. Cause there are many. Jorge Valdano:" Romario es un Jugador de los Dibujos Animados" Which means "Romario is a cartoon player".

In his first season Romario scored goals in such a diverse imagination not even R9 could emulate the exclusivity of the goals in his entire career. Romario scored many goals by chipping over the goalie. R9 also did that but perhaps 3 maximum his entire career. Romario scored "cola de vaca" (180 degree turn) Ronaldo never performed that beauty. Romario scored goals after doing sombreros, Ronaldo seldom (very rare) did that in his entire career. And the list goes on. What I am saying here is that while Ronaldo did different variation of goals in his 15 years career lifespan, Romario did the same but in one single season with Barca (during prime). So not only does Romario win in shear numbers but also in concentration of most beautiful goals in a short period of time and when it mattered the most. One of the most beautiful goals ever in the Camp Nou is Romario famous "cola de vaca" vs Real Madrid El Clasico. Ronaldo never scored beautiful goals against Real in El Clasico.

@Pipiolo

 

one can "prefer" some player to another (FINE) , but to IMPLY that as "better" is none sense - unless it's a real case with fact, data or worldwide recognition ...

 

I tried to ignite and get people's attention on Rivaldo.

Giles, if you go to Romario vs Ronaldo thread, and check my post going a year back, you will see that I was the member who mentioned Rivaldo's name in order to get people discussing about him. @celito chimed in and gave a lot of good insights into Rivaldo career and the majority of debaters repped him and agreed. But James as usual had to go against the current and say that Ronaldo was better then Rivaldo. He was the only debater denying Rivaldo as WC02 main man. I remember Celito quoting Rivaldo's press conference in which he stated that Rivaldo was his most valuable player in WC02. But James had to deny this and he never ever not even considered that this statement came from Brazil own NT manager. A WC winning manager. So it only shows what you are up against here. The is no reasoning with fanatics who even dare to criticise Brazil's own NT coach for endorsing some other player but R9.

We all know that if we start a Rivaldo thread it's going to end the same way as Romario. That is you will have people like James and Dagoods coming and brag and rant about R9 greatness.

@Pipiolo

 

You started it. You said R9 was better a year ago. I remember clearly i subscribed to this forum so I could confront James88 and Alexander88 stop waving the R9 fanboy flag. And then you came and said that R9 was better. That's how we got caught in this everlasting quagmire. So don't play the martyr now.

Worldwide recognition?

You know that the most endorsed players will always win a vote in Ballon D'Or etc. So you cannot use these awards to claim facts. Facts is when there is indisputable testifiable and verifiable check up by a community. And as far as i have seen, you have not produce one single proof yet that R9 was better. Your banners and posters and often flawed (full of errors) stats did not help you either. You need to inform yourself first what "FACT" means before using it at will, as you usually do. Your arguments have been cheap and didn't move me. And in the end if you observe carefully, for the duration of this R0-Ro debate those who spoke of Romario got the most reps regularly/frequently while you seldom got a rep here and there. This to me shows that people didn't find any insight nor enlightenment in your noisy post.

You have not given constructive critics of both players the way leadleader or edhardy does. What you have done instead all this time, was waving your R9 banner fanboyistically and made a statement. You just made a bold statement and still do. The day you start presenting a game or play and discuss it with us on equal terms is the day people will start listen to you. But until then in the eyes of the majority here you are nothing but a fanboy who makes statements.

 

bla bla ....

what leadleader said about Zidane is PURE SPECULATION nothing tangible = no count

 

The funny thing is that we think of you the same way. While you at it, we think of your comments and self proclaimed facts as pure speculation. Isn't ironic? Some members even think your not right in the head. Not me, I am just the messenger.

Having said that @leadleader speculation (quoting you) is more convincing then your colourful empty banners. He explained himself eloquently and got many reps here for his efforts. But you....waving posters and banners. Those sensational pictures/posters of your didn't contain any facts in them. And your stats didn't established any facts either. So as far as I know, it's been all speculative extrapolation.

I have had some good insights and was quite enlightened to see how he explained some technical skills e.g. shielding. But what have you contributed to this forum in terms of knowledge. All you did so far was stating what we all know. You have never got one single technical skill defined correctly. Dribbling needs be multi-steps over? Headers is a lesser technical skill? Rebounds are not classed as assists? You got them all wrong!

And you are coaching, are you sure about that?....

In 1996 much rumour had it that Ronaldo might have a bright future that could even emulate Pele. The reporters exploited this in the media. Even I believed it for I was his fan back then. But just two years after (and after WC98 disappointment) that the world realised he was in the end no "heir to Pele" and even Ronaldo moved on. What remain of the myth was a prolific striker that made history in WC's with his above average performances. But he didn't emulate Pele nor Maradona. He remained as one of the greatest strikers in modern football. He retired even prematurely due to overweight and lack of fitness. But James and other fanboys (which are millions) they got stock and frozen in 1996. Ever living the dream that never was. The man didn't deliver the dream but his fans couldn't let go of what once was a mere myth that didn't materialise. And now in this forum you are using an old expectation of 1996 that did not become true as FACT? Man wake up!

 

Indeed, most of the Brazilian posters felt that Rivaldo was just as valuable at least, if not more so, than Ronaldo at WC02. Rivaldo is also more of an icon for Barcelona than Ronaldo is for any team he played for: PSV, Barcelona, Inter Milan, Real Madrid.

 

I will go back and have a look through the posts ... I am glad to hear that rivaldo has got some respect from the people here.. I am sorry if my insights came a year too late !

 

That is true... Maybe because R9 didnt stick around too long at clubs... And also he played for inter and ac milan - real madrid and barcelona... Thats not the way to endear yourself to supporters of those clubs !!

 

that's right
Barca 1 season, Inter 1.5 seasons (98-99) and back with 0.35 seasons 02 (10games), AC milan 0.75 seasons (max) ....
Only at Real he spent 5seasons but only 2 seasons was less affected with injury 03 and 04

 

Another topic we much talked about in Ro-Ro is the why Ronaldo never stayed too long at one Club to become a household name. There were many insights and some people like Puck and Celito made some good contributions. But as i remember and you will see when your browse through those posts, that James, yet again, had to blame Clubs and not R9 for his early departures. Always when R9 failed to perform or left a club too soon, James goes like "it's the Club" faults or "sub par Clubs". While the overwhelming majority of posters all agreed that R9's agents and sponsors got do it. They wanted him to move on because signing new contracts meant new fresh profits with the R9 logo. R9 was the most marketing player in the 90's and early 2000's. His name draw in fans and media coverage, and Nike his main sponsor called the shots. Even to the extend that Flamengo's president send a letter to Corinthians warning them and demanding them for an answer on whether Nike had influence Ronaldo (who was known to want to end his career at his beloved dream club Flamengo) to change his mind last minute and sign with Corinthians to the surprise of the Flamengo fans. As we know R9 used Flamengo's training camp and physiotherapist for months after he left AC Milan. He needed to recover from his last injury. And Flamengo was assured he would sign with them. Last minute as usual he goes to Corinthians. Giles since you are curious, PuckVanHeel translated a Duct national TV documentary on Ronaldo's signing with PSV. The Nike Europe president Mr. Cees Van Nieuwenhuizen and PSV manager Dick Advocaat testified on Dutch TV stating that Nike paid Ronaldo's transfer and sponsored PSV with the aim (since 1993/94) to open a new European market for the brand. We know that Brazil's NT was sponsored by Umbro (Nike daughter company) and that after WC94 Brazil signed a 100million dollar contract with Nike. In the late 90's early 00' there was lawsuits and much investigation from judicial officials into a case alleging CBF president Mr. Teixeira taking money under the table from Nike and that Nike had influence into NT management to call Ronaldo up for friendlies. Quite interesting saga that is a still much debated topic in Brazilian parliament today.

 

I have heard about the dodgy Nike dealings at the CBF but never looked too deep into it... But i would imagine texeira to be just as corrupt as blatter from what i've read.. Money is the evil that has destroyed the soul of football in my opinion.. I dont mean to be negative about the modern game but footballers on the whole ( not every player ) seem to be athletes before they are footballers.. This may not be the right thread to bring this up , and i may be wrong - but alot of the time after i ve watched a match i am left with the feeling that i have just witnesed robots instead of players ( if you know what i mean )

 

@giles varley

Here's the video about PSV, Ronaldo and Nike bosses.

http://nos.nl/video/252290-ronaldo-de-eindhovense-jaren.html

It;s in Dutch but PuckVanHeel made 6 parts of translation. One in each week. Thanks Puck for your work!

Any R9 fan should watch this video. If you want to know R9 true beginnings than you must not miss this video.

it;s the only video that discusses Ronaldo first European signing. With interviews of PSV and Nike management.

Here's the translation post of Puck.

Part 1: scrowl backwards from part 2
Part 2:PuckVanHeel,Oct 6, 2013
Part 3: PuckVanHeel,Oct 6, 2013
Part 4:PuckVanHeel,Oct 6, 2013
Part 5: PuckVanHeel,Oct 6, 2013
Part 6: PuckVanHeel,Oct 7, 2013
To find part 1 you will have to scowl back the dates to earlier post. In total I think it was 6 parts in all.

Also, I encourage you to read @Bada Bing stats posted on the same pages. He has the best and most accurate stats table on Messi, RonaldoR9, Maradona, Ronaldinho, Romario's Barca's records (assists, goals, gpg etc) Romario had 14 assists in his first season with Barca and Ronaldo had 10 assists.

Romario here: Bada Bing,Oct 7, 2013
Ronaldo here: Bada Bing,Oct 6, 2013

Even James said those archives by Bada Bing were good. But then he had to find a ...But factor! as usual JamesBH11,Oct 7, 2013 Always excuses!

 

Romario vs Ronaldo stats in the peaks and primes of their European career with Barcelona!

Bada Bing sourced


Ronaldo


Romario



Overall performances for different players at Barca (Ro-Ro)


So a cherry picker/nitpicker would argue about a few little differences between Ro-Ro. But you can see that both had exactly the same gpg, while Romario had more assists. All in all this refutes @JamesBH11 arrogant and empty pretention of proof based view in favour of Ronaldo. There is no such thing is proof in football. There's only a few consensus reached for Maradona and Pele and Cruyff and Eusebio. The top 6 all time best players are proven to be legit. But all other players from Ronaldo/Romario to CR7 it's all speculation. James wake up and stop claiming things with no base. The tables above you have approved yourself here: JamesBH11,Oct 7, 2013 so do not seek new excuses to criticise the table above cause they are better products then anything you have ever produced.

@giles varley @Pipiolo @leadleader @Guigs @Jaweirdo

 

it was good in LIGA only,
what about other games in the season that he won Cupwinners and Copa Delrey?
what about Barcaz10-13 = rank#1 >>>>>> Barca 96-97 ranked #36?
Romario was below them already

those are badabing MIS INFO or he only put things to make Messi looking good!

 

Interesting chart .. Thank you