Now let's not confuse between raw talent/skillset with Career achievement! 1- In Raw talent/skillset (in playmaking position) Riquelem = Zidane = M Laudrup >= Rui Costa >= Iniesta 2- In Career Achievement and fame: (often trophies + longevity) Zidane >= M Laudrup >= Iniesta >= Riquelme = Rui Costa But one remark about Iniesta was that he was more of an AM then a playmaker so I don;t know why his name is here with them!!!! Iniesta was more of a type of Paul Scholes, Rivaldo, Gerard Carzola Mata ...
Again it's your opinion and I'm cool with that. I still disagree on your number rating system you have there. With ball control its possibly a dead heat, but with dribbling we're on different pages here especially if we were to break it down. When it came to close proximity dribbling or dribbling in tight spaces Riquelme and Iniesta would edge out Rui Costa. But when it came to running at defenders Rui was top's in my book, at his peak he was gliding past defenders effortlessly at times. I also believe Riquelme's ball retention ability is quite overrated, yes he had a unique way of keeping possession using his frame to retain the ball but more often than not he would fall to ground, subsequently get fouled or even lose possession. He was not necessarily the most productive when retaining the ball either, on the other hand Rui Costa had the ability to create something out of nothing during ball retention. Either way long story short Rui Costa and Iniesta were a notch above Riquelme Imo.
Do you honestly not understand the OBVIOUS flaw of your logic? Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rui Costa, Xavi, Iniesta -- not one of those players is "slow". Now, when you talk about "slow" players such as Valderrama or Riquelme, you really should be looking at different strengths because, OBVIOUSLY, these slow players will have OBVIOUSLY different strengths than the players who you claim had better technique. Ronaldinho, Riquelme, Iniesta, and Valderrama, I consider to be on the same level more or less when it comes to technique. Zidane, Rui Costa, and Xavi, are simply a step below. Zidane's first touch is up there with the best all-time players, but his actual overall technique? No. You have your opinion, and I have respectfully explained why I disagree with you. These are the "quantum numbers" (so to say) by which I measure technique: (1st) first touch, (2nd) dribbling, (3rd) evasive dribbling, (4th) in-movement shielding, (5th) stationary shielding, and (6th) difficult specific skills such as sombreros or nutmegs or roulettes or step-overs. 1st -- first touch: any technique involving first touch. 2nd -- dribbling: any technique that involves running at a defender, and then dribbling past the defender by "tricking" or "side-stepping" the defender rather than by running past nothing but empty space. 3rd -- evasive dribbling: any technique that involves *not* running at a defender, and then dribbling past the defender by "tricking" or "side-stepping" the defender rather than by dribbling past nothing but empty space. 4th -- in-movement shielding: any technique that involves *not* running past defenders when you are covering yards or feet of space, without loosing possession of the ball even when pressed by one or two or multiple opponents. 5th -- stationary shielding: any technique that involves *not* running past defenders when you are *not* covering yards or feet of space, without loosing possession of the ball even when pressed by one or two or multiple opponents. 6th -- difficult specific skills such as sombreros or nutmegs or roulettes or step-overs: self-explanatory category. Zidane was very average at the (5th) ability, an all-time great at the (1st) ability and at the (4th) ability, and good at the remaining abilities; Zidane rarely used the (6th) ability, and his 6th ability would be the roulette and step-overs, which he did not used consistently nor effectively as far as I'm concerned; actually, Zidane's most difficult skills are first touch skills, which is covered by the (1st) ability rather than understood as a part of the (6th) ability. Zidane used the (6th) ability as a "gimmick", as an "adornment", rather as a substantial part of his game. Iniesta is obviously better than Zidane at the (2nd) ability, an all-time great at the (5th) ability and the (4th) ability and the (3rd) ability, and not as great as Zidane at the (1st) ability; unlike Zidane, Iniesta consistently used the (6th) ability, he had his own original tricks which he used quite consistently and effectively. Riquelme was perhaps a little below Zidane in the (2nd) ability, a little below Zidane in the (1st) ability as well, but vastly superior when it comes to the (5th) ability and the (3rd) ability, and a little below Zidane but still great at the (4th) ability; Riquelme used the (6th) ability all the time, he combined sombreros and sole-of-the-foot tricks rather consistently as well as effectively, vastly superior to Zidane in this respect. Riquelme used the (6th) ability as a substantial part of his game, not as a mere adornment. Valderrama was below Zidane at the (2nd) ability, a little below Zidane but still amazing at the (1st) ability, but vastly superior when it came to the (5th) ability and the (3rd) ability, and just as good as Zidane at the (4th) ability; Valderrama used the (6th) ability consistently and effectively, though his 6th ability consisted almost entirely of stationary dribbles and soul-of-the-foot dribbles, better than Zidane in this respect. Valderrama used the (6th) ability as a substantial part of his game rather than as a superficial side-show. Ronaldinho was as good if not better than Iniesta at the (2nd) ability, below Zidane at the (1st) ability, perhaps also below Zidane at the (4th) ability, better than Zidane at the (5th) ability, better than Zidane at the (3rd) ability, and vastly superior at the (6th) ability. Bottom line -- all these players are great technicians, but, the only one who is plain average at an important ability is Zidane. Riquelme and Valderrama, their greatest weakness is their lack of pace and their lack of general athleticism, but their actual technique has no obvious weak spots, whereas Zidane did indeed have an obvious weak spot. It is obvious to me that you do not understand what the (5th) ability is, nor what the (3rd) ability is. So logically, your ignorance with regards to the mentioned abilities, means that players like Riquelme and Valderrama are lost on you, since you do not even understand their actual strengths to begin with. I do not make the "rules", I merely observe and report -- you obviously have a complete disregard for the (5th) and (3rd) ability that I mentioned before. The fact that you chose to ignore and disregard said abilities, does not actually mean that those abilities are less important than the abilities that you personally think are more important. This "shielding" as I call it, is an actual ability, objectively speaking, regardless of whatever you chose to make of it. Zidane was amazing at "in-movement shielding", yet very average at "stationary shielding". Riquelme was amazing at every conceivable type of shielding -- deal with it. That is rather false. More often than not he would go to the ground because he was marked rather harshly, and most of the time that he would end in the ground, he would earn a free-kick, and, oh boy, was he effective at producing positive things from the free-kick spot. As for the point concerning Zidane, Laudrup, Ronaldinho: of course, because Zidane was "faster" -- you understand what being "faster" and more "mobile" adds to your game? I have never seen, ever, a player with either Valderrama's or Riquelme's (lack of) pace playing the way Zidane, Laudrup, or Ronaldinho, could. Considerable speed or pace is required in order to play like Zidane or Laudrup or Ronaldinho. Francesco Totti also, not even in his prime, could play like any out of Zidane, Laudrup, or Ronaldinho -- why? Because Totti was too slow for that type of play, and he also lacked general mobility/athleticism as well. I cannot stress this enough -- Zidane was not slow. In his 2001/2002 he could even out-run fast defenders. Explosive isn't exactly the word for prime Zidane, but prime Zidane, if he had space to run, could out-run past defenders without problem -- not a slow player as his legend suggests. The fact that you obviously prefer "mobile" players, does not actually mean that mobile players are, objectively speaking, better than stationary players. I have also said, many times, that Zidane is one of the all-time greats at that type of ability -- even if I don't think of him as a particularly amazing passer. Do you even understand what "technique" is? Of course Riquelme and Valderrama and Iniesta all had better technique than either Zidane or Rui Costa. You are delusional. Not me. Please get your definitions correct before, yet again, showing how much of a full fledged ignorant idiot you actually are -- sir. Zidane had exceptional first touch, exceptional in-movement shielding, and that was basically it as far as his technique goes. As a "stationary technician" he was average at best. As a dribbler, many players were better than him, even in his own generation. Oh and, Zidane was significantly faster than either Riquelme or Valderrama, which is a great advantage in European Football. What "ranting and raving" are you talking about? I talk clearly. I do not "rant" nor do I "rave" -- that would be what you do, and you do it in a very disgusting manner as well. As for Valderrama -- consistently played well or great against Argentina and Brazil. In the World Cup he had very good games against West Germany and Cameroon (the same Cameroon team which did a great job containing both Maradona and Hagi). I must ask -- How many matches did you watched of Valderrama between 1989 and 1992? That applies to just about any player with great technique. It is gibberish like that, that makes me wonder if you even stop to think for one second before responding -- what is the point of all the romantic and false rhetoric above? What does "greatness" have to do with passing ability? What does "transcending time" have to do with passing ability? Being a greater player or even a better player, doesn't necessarily make you a better passer. As usual, people who defend Zidane must talk about the "transcending of time" and the "big game" childish bullshit that invariably makes me want to throw up -- we are talking about passing ability. Please save the "Zidane's fart smelled like flowers" romantic bullshit rhetoric for another ocassion in which the person listening at the other end is just as gullible as you are. And you would know that Valderrama and Riquelme get too much credit because? I wonder. Is it because you watched them playing at club level, in their respective leagues (as opposed to watching the odd European Cup game here and there), to make up your own opinion? Or why exactly? Their lack of Champions League games and Euro appearances? Why are you so sure that they are given way too much credit? And, was Zinedine Zidane at the 1998 World Cup not given too much credit? Here's the other side of that "reality" that you mentioned -- memory is not accurate nor reliable most of the time. Nostalgia consistently plays a great factor whenever people "remember" someone who they once admired. Zidane played for one of the biggest NT of his generation. Zidane played for the biggest club in the world: Real Madrid. Obviously, Zidane does not need a youtube outlet as much as other players because playing at Real Madrid is a youtube outlet in and of itself -- obviously. Other players have had much better club careers than Zidane and they aren't remembered as much -- why? It isn't "transcendence", it's money, Zidane was great business. Valderrama who played at Montpellier, and Riquelme who played at Villarreal, are therefore, obviously more reliant on independent sources such as YouTube. Their evident lack of pace is also a factor when you consider that football is more reliant on speed with each passing year. And even then Valderrama's club career is virtually non-existent, only 7 or 8 games can be found of his entire, I repeat, his entire club career. Therefore, by logic, his youtube video clips consist only of Copa America and World Cup games + a very small number (no more than 9 games in total) of club games. Quite simply, that simply is not enough to "magnify" Valderrama's passing abilitites. Between 1990 and 1992 (Valderrama's best years by far; he quickly deteriorated in my opinion by 1993, and many people consider 1993 his best year) there's virtually no video of Valderrama. You can find Copa America 1989, World Cup 1990, and Copa America 1991 -- that is it. Again, it is simply impossible to "magnify" Valderrama's passing ability on the basis of such a small number of matches. The rest are games from different eras: 1993, 1994, 1995, and by then Valderrama had declined significantly, even if it is understandable that most people consider 1993 to be Valderrama's best year due to the TV exposure of the 1993 Copa America as well as the 1993 World Cup Qualifiers (and of course the famous game against Argentina, which is extremely overrated, helped in this respect a great deal). For example, a Valderrama youtube video, would be like taking all of Zinedine Zidane's World Cup games and Euro games, and trying to make a passing video compilation based on just that -- it would not be an "amazing" video let me assure you. But what Zidane has, that Valderrama does not have, is over 100+ club games on DVD format, which I could easily buy if I cared to spend some serious money on DVDs. I can literally get every single game that Zidane played for Real Madrid -- literally. Do you understand just how many great passes I could find in 100+ games? When you take over 100+ club games and you reduce it to a 10 minute passing compilation -- of course, the player will look like an absolutely amazing passer. But when you actually do what I did, and you buy 27 games of Zidane in season 2001/2002, and you actually sit and watch each game individually, 90 minutes at a time, day after day, it is very difficult to see Zidane as a "top 10" passer of all times. I sincerely do not hate nor dislike Zidane, but his passing ability is ridiculously overrated. In the 7 games that I have of Valderrama between 1990 and 1992, I have seen better passes than in the 27 games that I have of Zidane between 2001 and 2003. You can have your opinion, which by all means, I should respect, but that does not change the fact that Valderrama's club career was not televised/broadcasted, and that, as a result, little or nothing of Valderrama's club career can be watched today. So you can continue saying that Valderrama was overrated, but the fact of the matter still is the same -- you barely watched Valderrama playing club football. Your opinion of Valderrama is based on a handful of World Cup games and Copa America games added to whatever the newspaper of the time was telling you to think. No. I'm the guy who looks at guys such as the prototype you described above (you sure you aren't talking about yourself there?) and instantly gets bored. Fanboyism bores the life out of me. Fact of the matter is, believe it or not, agree with it or not -- I have recently watched both Zidane and Riquelme. Zidane was not as direct as Riquelme was as a passer, Zidane was also not as consistent as Riquelme was as a passer, it really is that simple. Maybe Zidane was a more direct player than Riquelme, perhaps, but a more direct passer he was not. You can talk about greatness and about other similarly unrelated bullshit all you want -- I'm talking about passing ability, simple as that. You are the type of guy who says "what Riquelme did with Boca Juniors is irrelevant" because you did in fact actually said that about five or so months ago. Riquelme reached the Champions League semi-final with a team like Villarreal -- he got lucky and his performances are extremely overrated, of course. Of course, had it been Zidane the one doing the things Riquelme was doing with Villarreal, then your opinion wouldn't be the same.
@msioux75 http://www.11freunde.de/interview/wolfgang-overath-ueber-spielmacher-selbstzweifel-und-netzer In this piece Overath talks about Netzer in comparison with himself. Concerning Netzer and his time at Real Madrid, he says the following. Overath felt very unsure because the majority of public opinion and press wanted Netzer in the team by 1973-74. It didn't help to play well ("I could not deal with the pressure"). Netzer wasn't present in (many of) the friendly games and test games, because Real Madrid did not let him go ( http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/netzer-intl.html ). Overath thought about quitting the national team but Schön convinced him otherwise ("You need to come"). "The iron door of the sport school closed behind me and from then on I did not look at the television, read no newspapers any longer." His first game became a big success. "It went from one second to the other, suddenly I was a starting player. Netzer became however, the longer the tournament prolonged, steadily better. He overcame during the tournament his conditional deficit, which he had brought from Spain." Compare: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/netzer-intl.html http://rsssf.com/miscellaneous/overath-intl.html "He [Netzer] had no chance against me." His only opportunity was to kick in a free kick against East Germany, in the last 15 minutes of the match. Overath subbed himself out, because of an "injury" he said (he says something like: "I wasn't subbed out but left the pitch by myself"). However, if the match against East Germany had ended in a victory, then the "mood" would've turned to Netzer again. He says also some other (noteworthy) things like how he feels that the football crowd was more critical in his time. That's because almost all of the football followers had (seriously) played football themselves. Later on he says too that Netzer wasn't an exceptional technical player, but had a great personality. He was a great "shielder" of the ball. And was a greater free kick taker than himself. Overath sees himself as a strong in the "short movements" while Netzer was virtually unstoppable when using his long strides and runs. But that's how he looked at Netzer (concerning your question regarding form/success in Spanish league).
Interesting post, mate. Thank you. I also heard that the NT backbone prefer Overath instead Netzer. But we must consider Real Madrid not letting him play test matches before WC, as you said. And how this could affect the preparation and tactics
Heard that too. Overath downplays this in the interview (though he's not explicitly asked for it). If you like, put this part in the translator. Doesn't mean Overath is (totally) right but he implicitly downplays that; telling how the manager often surprised the whole team with his line-up and that no one (Netzer or himself) was put aside, and that "no one [the players] took a position for either one of us." According to Overath, it was also better for the team spirit (or: community) that there was no strife within the squad, and they talked with each other. Try to put it in a translator if you like. Indeed; in the preceding months the NT played two preparation games with neither Overath and Netzer on the field (27/03/1974 vs Scotland and 17/04/1974 against Hungary). I think Netzer was injured for the first one and not released by Madrid for the second game. Netzer was released and did play at 01/05/1974 against Sweden (arriving at the camp on 28/04/1974 according to my info). After that he played two more games for Real Madrid, the last one being at 12/05/1974. Interesting is that Netzer joined the staff at 15/05/1974 while all other players got some rest and joined the FA at 29/05/1974. The reason: Netzer his fitness level and condition was regarded as insufficient. Therefore, Schön and the staff tried to get him back to expected shape. Netzer trained at his old club Borussia Monchengladbach, Schön summoned him. The other selected players had 'vacation' or 'rest' if you like (until 29/05/1974). http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010619654:mpeg21:a0406 http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011236593:mpeg21:a0121 That also explains (IMO) Overath his comment that Netzer became better during the tournament.
If Messi with his rather straightforward and pace-less balls (second pass isn't even perfect!) has a place in this thread then, I guess, also Ronaldo and Romario can have a mention So much better than Romario with his '50/50 success rate' flicks and tricks
Best through ball passer in my opinion was zico ... His through ball to junior with his weaker foot against argentina in 1982 still looks as good now as it did back then.. He made passes like that his whole career for flamengo and udinese.. His through ball to branco in the 1986 quarter final against france that led to a penalty ( which zico missed ! ) was also class.. Of all the great through ball passers i would say zico was best.. Platini also had an eye for a game changing pass as did maradona.. In the present day david silva always impresses me with his through balls .. Very clever little player..
agree so .... best thru balls I've watched live (grown up) Zico, Maradona, Laudrup, Zidane Platini, Valderama, Hagi, Bergkamp, Baggio, Xavi, and lately Messi.
I had heard many times that Baggio was a good passer, but I just can't see what made him a particularly memorable passer -- great long balls every now and then, great heel-pass every now and then, but his consistency and effectiveness with ground passes I think is disappointing for a player of his stature. Having said that, Baggio did played in a very defensive league that, at the time, was considered the best league in the world, so that may have affected Baggio's passing ability -- but still, I'm just saying: somewhat disappointed with his variety and ability at ground passes. Hagi I think is similar to Baggio in terms of passing -- great long balls or lobbed balls, but not a particularly memorable passer when it comes to ground passing (at least from the many games I have watched of him quite recently). From not too long ago, I think Riquelme and Ronaldinho were outstanding at delivering "thru balls" from any range, ground or air. Zidane -- spectacular long balls to the sides, spectacular or "aesthetically" pleasing sideways passing, but his directness with both ground passes and long balls I found to be disappointing as well as inconsistent.
Hagi is one of the greatest passers of all time. You need to watch him at WCs 90 and 94 for starters. @leadleader
very well said .. I agree mostly ... except Hagi was not similar to Baggio. He was a sure better passer over all a "true Playmaker' or so called "Maradona of the Eastern Europe" Riquelme and Zidane had better "passing range" then say Ronaldinho (who was expert in trhu ball and flip over pass in short range)
Perhaps I do need to watch him at those two tournaments -- I admit I haven't seen him at either of those tournaments (note: well, to be exact, I have watched two games of him at the 1990 WC, and one game vs Colombia at the 1994 WC, and I wasn't particularly impressed by his passing ability). Having said that, I have about 15 or maybe 20 (haven't counted them now that I think of it) games of Gheorghe Hagi at Real Madrid between 1990 and 1992, and his ground passes are very inconsistent in my opinion. I love his technique style and his imagination for trying difficult shots on goal, but his ground passes were rather disappointing for a player of his stature.
Just found a rather surprising/unexpected picture that I found in some website. The picture itself I can't post here directly, but the website/link is the following -- http://sgplayers.freeforums.org/wccf-2012-2013-t778-70.html (note: slide downwards, the picture is placed in the middle of the page) In the website there is a card or picture of Carlos Valderrama playing for Montpellier in season 1990/1991, and unexpectedly, the man who is following Valderrama closely is none other than a very young Zinedine Zidane. I knew Valderrama had played against Zidane in season 1990/1991, but I never thought I'd see pictures from that game, so I was rather surprised when I saw that picture which captured both players.
Still got it! Zidane shows Real Madrid stars how it's done with cheeky flicks in training By RICHARD ARROWSMITH PUBLISHED: 06:51 EST, 28 January 2014 | UPDATED: 08:37 EST, 28 January 2014 Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...al-Madrid-training-session.html#ixzz31r7N5FRC Zidane showed Iniesta how to trap and control the ball .... who said Zidane could not do tackle?
Valderrama and Zidane in season 1990/1991!! (note: it actually took me almost a minute to identify that familiar face in the background)
I had a look at the two highlight clips of this game but it hasn't this long ball where Sheva is one-on-one vs GK? I had expected it because reportedly it wasn't a game with a lot of chances (for Milan, hence also that boring final in 2003) Good pass by Rui Costa