World Cup legends/heroes in history by variety of sources

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by JamesBH11, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes according to many boys playing PES and FIFA games who spent 20 hrs a day in computer that VOTED
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes. The 'dispute' is whether the defender accidentally passed it to Vava rather than Pelé himself, but I don't think that's the case.

    Hard to follow and track the ball though.
     
  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If that makes you feel better. Most fans who did not vote actually would have gone for Maradona. Even my father, a lifelong Brazil and Pele fan, and so many friendly arguments we had in the 80s and 90s, came around soon after Diego's retirement and admitted Maradona was the greater player. Maradona would have won by an even larger margin had they voted.
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #104 JamesBH11, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    We discussed this before, I said I counted assist for PK and also FK for all of them (since many followed FIFA rule as questionable)
    Meazza was unknown (note my ? perviuosly)
    So Pele 4goals+6ass/7games WC70 (inlcude FK of Rivelino) + 1 in 62 and 2 in 58 = 9total
    Cruijff 3goals+4ass/7games WC74 (include PK in final)
    Pukas got at least 2 (0r 3?) ass in WC54 + 2 in 62 = 4 total (3rd one questionable as it touched df LEGS?)
    Muller got 3 in WC70 and 2 in WC74 = 5total
    Moore and Beckenbauer assists needs to be revised (for PK or FK)... as often one ignored them in attack ... (agree). Beckenbauer had 0assist in direct assists.
    Moore He was ranked higher then Charlton (for me only) since he palyed more in WC level and more consistently
     
  5. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany

    gerd müller 1974 has created a penalty against sweden..hoeness was sucessful with his penalty..so using your criteria 6 assists and not 5...
    are you sure pele has 2 assists 1958??
     
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  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Thanks so added to Muller's = 6ass total
    One ass is questionable (Garrincha crossed in to Pele he spilled to Vava (but not sure it touched a DF in between) - my video was so bad in quality LOL.

    As I said this thread is open for everyone to feedback with good justification and make it more realistic!
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nice attempt. Like I said, I find it hard to balance appearances with form. Ofc luck also plays a role (like the 'what if' of Maradona's handballs in 1986 and 1990).

    Anyway, I'll post some videos I've seen passing by


    The scenes at 07:50 are disenchanting :(







    I'll give an personal indication for some of the 'big' names.

    Pelé - place 1 or 2
    Maradona - place 1 or 2
    Beckenbauer - place 5 to 15
    Cruijff - place 3 to 20
    Eusebio - place 3 to 20
    Garrincha - place 7 to 15
    Moore - place 8 to 20
    Zidane - place 5 to 15
    Romario - place 15 to 30
    Ronaldo - place 5 to 15
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I understand what you mean. I think I still favoured one great WC over multiple very good ones, especially with Cruyff's placing (though ofc a great final performance and a victory could have made it an even better WC) and Eusebio too (although I've put Jairzinho just ahead with ok contributions rather than great ones outside of 1970). We agree on Beckenbauer and Zidane being a close call then - on that one I did make the call on the number of excellent WC's I suppose (because his 1974 would be included, despite that I left it off my single WC's list).

    Where it was a reasonably close call between two players in a WC, then ofc I looked at their other WC's though. Other good WC's giving players a boost, but possibly also a not so good WC counting against them. For example somehow Hagi's 1998 WC might have led me to keep him below Romario wheras ofc he played more and did better than Romario could in 1990 so without 1998 it could have been a close decision. Kempes, outside of 1978, probably held him back from a higher placing than some with less WC's (Fontaine or even Eusebio) or some with more than one WC where they shone/excelled for their team (Rossi, Muller). Pele's brief contributions in 1962 and 1966 (not perfect games, but excellent and decisive moments while he was fit) maybe matched off with the best moments of Maradona in 1982 and 1990 (and 1994 to an extent) I felt so I just felt that Pele's 1958 and 1970 together (both within range of Maradona's 1986 but not as good I felt) could or should give him the number 1 spot.

    I'll probably have a very approximate go at a further 50 to take my list up to 100 players.

    Not today probably, but I might try and list assists for the players in my list, but I'd probably have to use the + sign to indicate where a player might have more than shown (Meazza will likely be such a player, unless I can see or get a very good description of all Italian goals - I've seen him get some assists ofc including in at least one of the finals IIRC - I showed you what I saw of him assisting once before IIRC). Obviously in terms of the basic stats the assists are the hard ones to compile.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #109 PuckVanHeel, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    Yes agree. In brief I think Zidane was the more brilliant and creatively important player but the first one has the benefit of consistency, even when accounting for that deeper positions go along with higher consistency (though I think many other players, including Bobby Moore, were the better 'pure' and reliable defender; and others a better 'dm' - see also the OPTA world cup stats btw).
    Maybe Zidane vs Overath (at World Cups) will be an interesting comparison though. It's perhaps closer as many people think.

    It's only one game but I think Pele in 1966 vs Bulgaria was a bit better as against Mexico in 1962. I rate Bulgaria of 1966 as the better opponent and on top of that I noticed that Pelé, despite his goal and assist, lost the ball very often against Mexico. And with 'often' I mean that's above the average of forward players. Pelé his wing play and passing vs Bulgaria seemed to be better too, although the pitch was also noticeably better. In any case the Bulgaria defenders gave him more of a challenge, that's certain.

    Regarding Kempes, he had some good comments in the ESPN profiles James posted.
    http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/worldcupcentral/id/3442?cc=5739

    http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/worldcupcentral/id/3473?cc=5739
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Good thoughts - thanks.

    Having seen that 1962 Pele game with all (I think) of his touches I do see what you mean there although I would say his goal and his assist to an extent were very much 'out of the ordinary'. If he'd done that in every game he's still have had a great WC.

    Beckenbauer, I suppose, in 1966 could be termed more of a CM in effect than a DM except for in the final but although Charlton was restricted in that game, it would seem the wrong choice to have Beckenbauer hanging back marking him (not to say Germany win otherwise necessarily).

    As for Overath I haven't actually squeezed him in to the next 50 names I came up with (I wrote down several I had to exclude actually, but hopefully nobody I would have wanted to include slipped my mind). Maybe he is a player I have a block on in my mind in terms of fully appreciating, I dunno. I think the full games of his from WC's that I've seen are probably only the 1966 Final, the 1974 Final and the 1970 Italy game though IIRC. Anyway, I don't dislike him or anything and neither Riquelme (who I know you don't rate as high, but I do think if I named 50 more single WC tournaments then his from 2006 would likely be included, but I also didn't find room for him in the next 50 overall WC players but as I say it's a very rough estimate). Those wouldn't be players I'd even think about putting on that disliked players thread (don't want to post on there, but probably I'm not the biggest fan of Andy Carroll or Michael Essien if I had to call it). Overath (by people including you) and Riquelme (by others but not you) are probably just more highly rated/appreciated by some I suppose.

    Anyway, here are those next 50 I decided upon:
    51 - Gaetano Scirea (Italy - 1978, 1982, 1986)
    52 - Florian Albert (Hungary - 1962, 1966)
    53 - Lilian Thuram (France - 1998, 2002, 2006)
    54 - Cafu (Brazil - 1994, 1998, 2002, 2006)
    55 - Zbigniew Boniek (Poland - 1978, 1982, 1986)
    56 - Gerson (Brazil - 1966, 1970)
    57 - Falcao (Brazil - 1982)
    58 - Obdulio Varela (Uruguay - 1950, 1954)
    59 - Paul Gascoigne (England - 1990)
    60 - Josef Masopust (Czechoslovakia - 1958, 1962)
    61 - Claudio Caniggia (Argentina - 1990, 1994)
    62 - Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary - 1954, 1958)
    63 - Ferenc Puskas (Hungary/Spain - 1954, 1962)
    64 - Nandor Hidegkuti (Hungary - 1954, 1958)
    65 - Alain Giresse (France - 1982, 1986)
    66 - Rivelino (Brazil - 1970, 1974, 1978)
    67 - Igor Belanov (Soviet Union - 1986)
    68 - Leonidas (Brazil - 1938)
    69 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany - 1978, 1982, 1986)
    70 - Jan Ceulemans (Belgium - 1982, 1986, 1990)
    71 - Silvio Piola (Italy - 1938)
    72 - Rinat Dasaev (Soviet Union - 1982, 1986)
    73 - Tomas Brolin (Sweden - 1990, 1994)
    74 - Nils Liedholm (Sweden - 1958)
    75 - Ubaldo Fillol (Argentina - 1978, 1982)
    76 - Fabio Cannavaro (Italy - 1998, 2002, 2006)
    77 - Kurt Hamrin (Sweden - 1958)
    78 - Ronaldinho (Brazil - 2002, 2006)
    79 - Hristo Stoichkov (Bulgaria - 1994, 1998)
    80 - Helmut Rahn (W.Germany - 1954, 1958)
    81 - Zoltan Czibor (Hungary - 1954)
    82 - Davor Suker (Croatia - 1998)
    83 - Ferenc Bene (Hungary - 1966)
    84 - Dragan Stojkovic (Yugoslavia - 1990, 1998)
    85 - Zizinho (Brazil - 1950)
    86 - Bebeto (Brazil - 1990, 1994, 1998)
    87 - Nilton Santos (Brazil - 1950, 1954, 1958, 1962)
    88 - Zito (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966)
    89 - Enzo Scifo (Belgium - 1986, 1990, 1994, 1998)
    90 - Andres Iniesta (Spain - 2006, 2010)
    91 - Maxime Bossis (France - 1978, 1982, 1986)
    92 - Gianni Rivera (Italy - 1962, 1966, 1970, 1974)
    93 - Gyula Grosics (Hungary - 1954, 1958, 1962)
    94 - Michel Preud'homme (Belgium - 1990, 1994)
    95 - Gilmar (Brazil - 1958, 1962, 1966)
    96 - Patrick Vieira (France - 1998, 2002, 2006)
    97 - Jorge Burruchaga (Argentina - 1986, 1990)
    98 - Brian Laudrup (Denmark - 1998)
    99 - Uwe Seeler (W.Germany - 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970)
    100 - Jorginho (Brazil - 1990, 1994).
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes true. Funny though that his assist also arrived from a moment where he lost the ball. But not losing the ball because of a poor control or strange decision making (which he did IMO in the match) but because the defence closed the space he ran into.


    Agree; can also be seen as a CM (with Overath the other CM) or a DM-AM pair. Also interesting that you include the midfield version but not the sweeper version, despite that the latter position was from the very beginning his favourite one (read anyway an article from 1967 and 1968 where the libero position, without direct opponents faced, was more preferred).

    Maybe - above all it's just that Zidane vs Overath (at World Cup games only) makes maybe more sense as Zidane vs Beckenbauer. Looking at the statistics it also demonstrates that Overath was the 'chance creating' midfielder in 1966 and 1970, just as Zidane was in his own tournaments.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, certainly libero became Beckenbauer's signature role. Like I mentioned on the other thread, apart from his passing from defence I wasn't sure there were reasons to view his 1974 performances over other defensive players but potentially Beckenbauer the sweeper could have made my list if he'd done a bit more bringing the ball forwards as he did at other times (and maybe in the Euros either side of 1974 although it could be a false perception I have about that). Anyway his 1974 performances would contribute to the overall 5th position I put him in (putting him over Zidane too).

    And yeah - on one hand not every chance created will require the same brilliance, but on the other hand those stats can help us understand the patterns and including games we didn't see much/anything of. Maybe Overath, outside of some long-ish shots, wasn't spectacular but he was an efficient and accurate passer I suppose wasn't he? Without Netzer in the team he did play a key role.
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Individual performances is a better measure of greatness in the WC, particularly because many great players from smaller nations may only just get one chance at it. To me, multiple participation should be only a small part of the formula. Cruyff and Eusebio only played one WC each, yet they stand far higher in the WC legends ranking than someone like Batistuta or even Ronaldo.

    @PDG1978
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, generally I'd agree. I did think about trying to design some formula but it'd be hard really - something like averaging out marks out of 10 and then adding on half a point for every tournament. I expect any formula would give undesired/unsatisfactory results though. I felt like where players had IMO similar quality 'best' tournaments then the player with other good to very good tournanments could place higher in a WC performances/legends list but generally the best performances counted the most, albeit Pele was my call for number 1 with his two stand-out WC's and other contributions over the probably better single WC by Cruyff and even Maradona's 1986 plus other moments of top quality in other years.

    I think I had Ronaldo's best WC as below the 20th best approximately, but I suppose I had him overtake a few players overall due to his effectiveness in two WC's though he never showed his absolute best level indeed.
     
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I disagree ... many exaggerated Eusebio performance at WC66 a bit too much based on his 9goals?
    In fact his 9goals were NO more value then Ronaldo's 8goals in WC02.
    Why?
    1-note he scored 4goals in 1 game with 2 PK ... vs who? North Korea in QF

    2- Another fact that many did not realize: Portugal NT were strong at time and built up on 6 core players of Benfica ( just like Spain and Barca now .... that's the ADVANTAGE of Eusebio.

    3- Rule of thumb, if not legends, player play more WC's , the less impression they will make (just like Goals per game) - like Maradona. If he ONLY played at WC82 = failed, but if he only played WC86 = super great or best ever? So no waranty that Eusebio will shine in another WC? very unlikely because Portugal declined as that CORE Benfica team and Eusebio declined!

    While Brazilians were all from different teams get together with few games at WC
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    True, that is why Ronaldo his club career overshadows what he has done for the national team.

    Earlier 'failures' and experience contribute to later success.
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes, but what about WC90? Even Maradona got a label of "not fit" but his performance in big games in general was not that great as his WC86 sound = FACT - (here I was talking of the context great legends in big games)

    Or like Platini with France 82 and then 86? He and his team were a bit better (like you suggest experience) but over all not that better then 82 team ... still failed for Germany, even though they just corwned Euro champs 2 years earlier as another "experience"?!

    Or like Baggio, gaining experience in 90, and did great in 94 , but then so so in 98 ...
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    While I agree that one good WC is no guarantee for another good one, I do think it is difficult to neglect that previous experiences (from the staff, association as well as the player himself) help a lot for achieving future performances and successes.
    Also, to say Eusebio had it easier than Ronaldo is quite amusing considering Ronaldo his club career (in comp. with NT exploits).
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    It's a FACT, and let me tell you, if and ONLY if, CR7 or Messi now are willing to play for Spain NT, I have no doubt they would show up at WC or Euro champs like Eusebio WC66 ... for same reason - CORE team, and SYNC well together ...

    I did not mean Ronaldo 02 = Eusebio 66 nor higher, but I just highlight Eusebio 66 was often overhyped as his 9goals sounded in a WC that not many here watched, w./o much analysis. However overall WC, Ronaldo was surely above Eusebio (2 great WC > 1 great WC) period

    Many did ignore that fact and always (blindly) claim, Pele romario or roanaldo got a great team beside ... but they FAILED to realize that the "team" never played with each other even 10games consecutive before WC= hence Individual talent SHINE in BIG games - that's count. Similar to Zidane as he got so much hype for that (reasonable) reason = well deserved.

    Now in contrast, Ronaldo walked from one club to another within 1 or few years ,,,, and he almost never failed (to deliver) unless injuries interfered. Many IGNORED that fact as well, but always say "why he never wonn that many club trophies"? why they did not ask, why Xavi Iniesta Pedro Puyol won so many trophies as they were that great????
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #120 PuckVanHeel, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    Brazil is renowned for their good preparation and gelling. And certainly in Pelé his time, when they took many months and put aside club interests.

    Also right now they are the only team (except Germany) who'll built a hyper modern camp.

    EDIT: Eusebio his team-mates in 1966 were mostly forwards. Torres, Simoes, Augusto and Coluna as regulars from Benfica. Means there was still a lot to do, for building a proper backbone.
    Other than that, I think Eusebio his best in 1966 (aged 24) was better as Ronaldo in any WC of his.

    Maybe true that the sub-par performances by Maradona, Pelé, Ronaldo etc. dilute the impression but everything taken together I think the disadvantages (of Eusebio or a Stoichkov) compensate for the advantages you mention.
     
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  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #121 JamesBH11, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    not really,
    Pele only played 3 games with Brazil before WC58, and he even got injured before that
    At WC70, Brazil requested him back (retired) to the team 5 games before WC - there he had a bit more time ..

    Romario also got 3 games with NT before WC94 started

    Ronaldo only got 3 games before WC98 as well, and similar he got 4 friendly games before WC2002 (after 2.5years absence with football) - At WC06, Ronaldo rushed back from injuries, barely got 3 games practice vs amateurs team Austria, Brazil C team before WC06
    ==============================================

    That's why people are amazed with the pair Pele Garrincha/Vava and later one Ro-Ro partner ... as great understanding in the big games despite of they never played practiced with each other - as opposed to Di Stefano-Puskas (at Real 50-60) or AndyCole - Yorke at ManU late 90s
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Funnily Paolo Rossi and Ronaldo actually had a similar build-up to WC's 1982 and 2002 but for very different reasons (betting scandal though I think Rossi still denies guilt vs injury in Ronaldo's case). Both arguably missed their primes for their clubs or a big portion of it I suppose but speculation about what they might have done in those years and playing for who is very indefinite of course.

    And they were able to play those WC's and in slightly less spectacular style than they used to play with, were the key contributors in the end. And some weren't able to come back and play a WC (like Van Basten re: 1994) while others didn't have the opportunity (Giggs, Weah, Best, Di Stefano etc, plus the Yugoslavs in 1994 for different reasons).
     
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  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    even I kinda agree with the similarity in situation ... but it's a "big boost" to put Rossi next to Ronaldo's calibre

    One can add Puskas' long absence in football (>3years) and come back to WC62 with Spain NT without much success
     
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #124 JamesBH11, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    once again NOT really,
    - Simoes, Augusto and Coluna were all MF behind Eusebio at Benfica and also for Portugal 66.
    - Torres was best Eusenio partner at Benfica and also for Portugal 66 in front.
    So that's CORE team for Portugal 66

    They played (similar to Brazil 4 2 4 but more like a pre-modern 4 4 2 or 4 2 3 1)

    --------- Torres -----Eusebio*--------------
    ---Simoes --------------------Augusto ---
    ---------Coluna ----- JGarcia--------
    Conceicao------------------------A. Festa
    ---------Germano-----J Batista ---------
    --------------- Perreira -------------------

    NOTE": all red names were from BENFICA core team!
    Eusebio could pplay at front or drop back in between Simoes and Augussto as 4 2 3 1
    ==========================================

    Now back to Brazil success, many too quickly to claim great Pele Garrincha Romario or Ronaldo had great team support? but they FAILED to see why Rivelino, Zico, Falcao Socrates, Dirceu, Muller, to later Ronaldinho Kaka Robinho Adriano all FAILED at WC despite dof they always have great support???

    Note Platini like Zico too had great support but all failed at WC - but no shame they did have very good perofmrance there (with Zico was a bit unfortunate in WC86 due to injuries as his last chance)
    Argentina 02 had a great team with Veron Batistuta Aimar Ortega Zanetti Ayala Samuel ... all in their best form ,,, and ALL FAILED too so?
     
  25. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I wasn't talking about goals only, I am rating the level of play. Otherwise you could argue Ronaldo in WC02 scored more goals than Cruyff in WC74 and Maradona in WC86, thus it's also higher than them. In actual quality of play, Eusebio at WC66 is clearly superior to Ronaldo at any of his WCs. My point was about ranking giving the highest value to single individual performance, and in this respect Eusebio and Cruyff surely rank ahead of Ronaldo, even when it's one WC appearance versus three.

    Baggio was not subpar in WC98, he didn't get a true chance because of Cesare Maldini's inane strategy, but he played well when given the chance. He came close to eliminating France almost all by himself in the quarterfinal match.

    I agree @Puck, it is not just better but a far more important performance in the annals of soccer. Eusebio re-defines with this performance the modern striker position, while all Ronaldo did in three WCs was follow the blueprint, without ever daring to expand the boundary.
     

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