"The Toughest Of Decisions: Play For High School, Or An Academy?"

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by Beadling Boy, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Ronaldinho had high level instruction by from kids?? Nope. Ronaldinho played freely and so did his friends. Result? Most or maybe some became quite good. There is no way of knowing if EVERY KID in his neigborhood was high level. Take away all video games and computers from every kid in your neigborhood in USA and replace it with soccer on TV 24/7 and let them all go out and play and you will get those results or off to a much better start.
    Problem is we want them to do 10 different things plus let them play XBOX and Facebook and want to make up for it with QUALITY training 2-3 times a week with A Licensed coaches. No where near the same and a failed attempt. Then we wonder why the hell our kid is getting replaced by the new Hispanic kid who never even played for a big club before.
    Lol. Homie si good. I never shitted on baseball. It is a fact that less and less kids pick baseball. And more and more pick soccer. Cubs sell out most of the time. Again, those are stats throughout the country. Who is whining?? Its not about furthering sanything. Its about stating facts and laying out options transparently. I am sure high level training can and has worked for some. I just see a pattern with kids growing up playing freely that is more affective overall. Be it soccer or basketball. But we all choose what we think is best for ourselves. Again, I speak in general terms. Dont egt offended SIR.
     
  2. jeremys_dad

    jeremys_dad Member

    NYC Football Club
    Apr 29, 2007
    The Big Easy
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    While not having "The Facts" on every kid I am aware that if a kid is training 2 or 3 times every week they will always have a lot more to learn and be quite easily replaced by someone of any nationality, especially who grew up or whose parents grew up in a soccer culture. where a very high level training is totally available for free from friends and parents in nearly every back yard of the neighborhood....R's neighbors could all juggle a football by the time they could walk. Most trained and have fun with a ball for hours a day, every day. Insinuating this isn't a form of high level futbol education is absolutely ludicrous. Also positioned for free high level training are military brats living with their parents at exotic locations. Starting right out there in the schoolyard.

    My dad never played, never saw my few dozen games. His father wouldn't know even know what a soccer ball was. How would you propose our kid to learn when no one (including myself) knew WTF even a peel turn is? Self realization of ignorance is likely that most important quality a good soccer parent has. Saying "I don't have a clue" is that first step.

    "WE" don't let our kid do too many things but do have many expectations. In the good ole days we used to watch a lot of soccer together on TV as did his team mates with their dads. He watches more highlight these days. School was a breeze. Used to ski, still bikes. played basketball and enjoying Lacrosse now for the first time. Kicks ass on FIFA though our box died long ago. Kids need Xbox time with their friends, or on a pool table where I got to teach him "everything he knows."

    Ninth grade changes all that. While not certain what "Rio" does with their children that age, Jeremy has at least2 or 3 hours a day of homework. Teammates also all have a tremendous amount of homework. That's outside of twelve books to read this year with ongoing reports.

    Education is doubly important for athletes.

    24/7 futbol + one hard foul = flipping burgers @ McDonald's.

    While coming to the defense of Mexican football is indeed very noble, please be advised our son would also be proud to be called up for those same spots. He's often played teams from NJ/ Long Island often predominately Hispanic. J speaks enough Spanish to know what these guys are saying about him when they are admittedly kicking ass. Their coach yelling "Dieciocho" over and over is him having our kid marked. We've spoke to other families with their kids translating. And each and every one dreamed of being on a UEFA level team.

    When bringing up of these Mexican organizations, how is it they are not what is referred to as high level of training in their academies? It's the same we are learning to practice in America and growing everywhere it already hasn't. So many clubs in so many countries are at this moment scouring their countrysides scouting children to enlist for their teams. a/k/a clubs. a/k/a schools.

    In fact in many other places, including South America and Europe, high level training facilities can actually pay parents for the privilege of educating their child. Let someone try selling their child into indenture here in America and see where it lands them.

    We get a somewhat more honest transaction paying cash for soccer instruction then that with our taxes and results from public school. One real actual Academy we've ever had contact with for summer camps and conversations, Red Bull, didn't seem at all like those places you describe. They were most professional in every aspect. J still knows kids there and it's all legit. as your family having a problem with a particular club?

    Together we taught ourselves to put quality practice and effort above game time or scores. Tough sell to an average American kid.

    Club soccer taught at high level, will continue to grow. Eventually organizations developing sustainable funding models will allow all to enroll, no matter of their socioeconomic class, and lower less frantic or competitive levels will be an off shoot. Two clubs here already have B teams in some age groups. Clubs around here are pretty much on board already for any kid, going above and beyond what it takes to get them on the team, to the games, and helping with issues that clubs help each other out with. A good Soccer club is a lot more than just futbol.

    We only got three or four clubs around here but having large hearts is certainly a big part of how it is with them all, best I know. They've/we've sponsored dozens of refugees from many African countries. Over nearly ten years I've been afforded that opportunity to see several grow into young men. Without an organized high level soccer club their assimilation and flowering likely would not have been as great.

    This is coming for sure, and if anything, growth of high level soccer when operated appropriately will not only put our country on the soccer map ten years from now, but importantly serve to help provide more role models, opportunity for strenuous activity, community involvement (clubs are all involved in civic events). and a host of other positive effects that a demanding coach and magnanimous club can extract. Goggling club soccer.... "for every ten soccer moms each hauling five kids to three hundred club practices or games, there is at least one less person rotting in jail later on in their life. "
     
  3. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you make some good points here, but I wouldn't call informal streetball, pickup soccer, or learning from parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc. "high level training". Rather, I'd call it an immersion in soccer culture, as well as just plain old getting more touches.

    To me, "training" implies rigor, discipline, structure, and formal guidance by someone in some sort of authority or formal teaching position. What you describe above is more about gaining a "deep knowledge" of the game, as well as the latitude to develop a high comfort level with the ball and a familiarity with various scenarios, skills, etc.
     
  4. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    I guess that we agree on a few things here. We agree that being raised in an enviropnement where soccer is played mostly for fun under little to no supervision is better than 1.5 hours of training 3-4 times a week. And that is my main point. A Brazil Hood will always beat the best Academies in the world as afr as producing the very top is concerned. Ponit to learn here is that money/elite status is no match to love for the game in a community.
    So instead of trying to defend the Academy system which falls in the latter category maybe we should be focusing in having our players play in the barrios where soccer is #1.
    If you dont have any access to a barrio then I understand your choice. But I believe that if you had to pick and had the choice you would pick for your son to play in a soccer community over playing Academy if your and his main goal is to pl;ay soccer at the highest level.
    I say "high level training" when speaking of the expensive coaches and Academies. It doesnt mean I am for it. Only means that this is what is generally accepted in our society.
    To me the best possible learning experience to have soccer wise at the 5-13 year old ages is to just play freely but competitvely. this dhould cost very little so it is easily accessible.
    I have provided this system for my club players and they love it. They practice 3-4 timers a week and play 2 games a week on average. Some play 3 games a week. They also have the option of normal 2 practice one game a week if they want to. What do you think most want?
    I now know this can easily be done by anyone that has the right focus on player development. Its not about having a clue. Itys about having common sense and simply looking at examples of other communities and countries.
    If Brazil is best example of what to do development wise why do we choose to do exactly the opposite??
    If the hood is the best example basketball wise why do we choose to believe that same theory would not work with soccer??
    When black people started playing basketball whiote people already had a head start. Black people took baketball and piut their own flavor to it and played it completely differently. The main factor for their success in the NBA isnt their athleticism. Its their creativity and invented skill. With soccer, it was invented in Europe but Brazilians played it differently and are the undisputed kings. I see white people being more effective players following the black style in basketball.
    Of course any kid would pick UEFA or Europe. They pay more and more recogntition. But my point is that Mexico's Youth system is proven to be one of the best in the world right now. NonAcademy players often get recruited from these top world yoputh development clubs. Fact.
    Paying for soccer education, honest? Sure. What isnt ? Did you know that if your son goes pro that Academy he is in can collect compensation fees and transfer fees?? About $10,000-$20,000 for each year since he was 12 that they trained him and a % fromevery transfer.
    Yep, its perfectly legal.
    Academy or no Academy your last sentence applies.
     
  5. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Why does it work for basketball, footbsll but not soccer?
     
  6. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    College basketball is still very much reccomended at least for 1-2 years for an NBA prone player. Why does it have to be any different with Soccer??
    So what you are saying is that if we had an Academy system in place for basketball we would have much better NBA players??
    If Brazil and Argentina had this Academy system and club soccer from U8-U16 they would develop even better players than what they produce now??
    It really doesnt seem that way. What do you base this notion on?
     
  7. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's vastly different because college basketball mimics the NBA season much, much better than college soccer mimics any professional league.
     
  8. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Right. So its not that school sports were meant to only be school sports the reason for the low level of soccer.
    Its because High School and College have not adjusted to the way soccer is supposed to be played to progress.
    Still doesnt mean we need the Academy system. It only means we need to improve the school standards of soccer.
    My point is that the Academy system is currently overhyped only because the school system is so bad when comparing the 2. We are comforming to one thing only because the other is worse. Not because it is actually proven effective.
     
  9. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree wholeheartedly...but...it's not like high school sports (NFHS) or college sports (NCAA/NAIA/USCAA/JUCO) are changing anytime soon. So, many are seeking other methods.

    It happens in other sports too, AAU basketball is wrecking havoc on many talented basketball programs, just like prep school basketball is too. Club baseball is starting to have fall seasons, which is forcing baseball players who played a fall sport to chose club baseball or not. All kinds of changes throughout all sports.

    Until the powers that be actually make some changes in the way things are structured, parents and players will continue to pursue those avenues that seem "better" regardless of what may be overhyped.
     
  10. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Yes but the methods we are blindly following are not proven to work. Actually, quite the contrary. Right now, its either High School or Academy. They make it seem like its only those 2 choices to make. What are Academies saying now that they arent dishing out Pro Players ?? "Oh, we get you into college". Why did we need Academy for that??
    If Academy did not exist we would have the same amount of USA players getti9ng into college through soccer.
    Why do we have to pick from those 2?? HAs the Academy been proven to work in player development that we absolutely need to be part of if you want any chance at being on National Team or considered elite??
    Look at all the American playing 1st division in Mexico. 80% of them didnt even play Academy. And of the other 20% only a very few played Academy for more than 1-2 years. Where do they get the notion that they are developing the best?
    Bsketball, Baseball pay to play, Yes and thats probably because they saw how successful it was in soccer to get people to get away from what has been working for a long time now and promote pro trainers and make money.
    Doesnt mean we needed it. The best basketball players will always come from the hood where basketball is played freely and creatively. Soccer's best will always come from equal environments. Everything else is unproven and is designed for the many people that believe they can pay their way through anything and the other people that want to believe they belong in that pay to play group but actually struggle very much to afford. We are blind in general to facts because they are inconvenient to our society. Fact is you get more out of scrimmaging unsupervised every day than 2-3 practices a week with Pro trainers. Proven Fact.
    The powers that be will never make these changes. too much money involved. inconvenient.
    We must initiate the change. Show this system up. Talk the talk and walk the walk.
     
  11. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    AAu has been around for a while now but the best players have always come from the hood. A low budget creative cultural environment. The best players you see at AAU are those same players that others are eager to pay for to win. Same story anywhere. Fact remains we have never needed AAU and will never need it to get the best players to play NBA. Same will be with Acadmy soccer.
     
  12. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Check out the history of AAU...it's been more than what it is now. It was the top amateur athletic association for many years before NCAA.

    We did need AAU at one point and have always needed it. It's another outlet to provide kids an opportunity. I would also venture to say no college basketball coach or NBA scout would ever say that we've never needed AAU or don't need it now.
     
  13. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Ok, maybe some players need AAU or have needed it. My point is that it is not absolutely needed to develop and identify the nation's best basketball players for recruitment into our colleges and pro ranks.
    Does the NCAA exclusevily recruit AAU to get to the very best basketball players in the nation?? No they dont. Does it help make it easier to identify the best if they do play AAU? Sure. Those are 2 different things.
    Its ok for Academy to exist and it helps to identify some of the best like AAu does but it should not be portrayed as the only "Elite" avenue or the only way to get noticed as a top player. Many High School Basketball players make it as far without AAU involvement.
    I am not against the existence of Academy. I am against portraying it as it is still not simply because there isnt any proof of it.
     
  14. gr8cgar

    gr8cgar New Member

    May 19, 2014
    Pacific Northwest
    Did not read the whole thread yet BUT for my son that was a easy answer to the Question "Play For High School, Or An Academy?"

    Academy - my son left his high school team right before the 1st regular season game. Played in 4 preseason games with HS then was offered a spot on a Academy team. His HS team won 3a state last year and has a change to win it again this year. His reply to this was "it was a emotional choice but a easy one also. Academy is where I need to be if I want to play against & with the best." His high school soccer was just for fun but he seems to be having more fun playing & training in the Academy. Man was his girlfriend mad, she liked watching him at high school games were she got to wear his other jersey.

    The other thing I would like to add is without a doubt in just a few weeks at academy he has had more college coaches show interest in him then then in the many months prior when he was hunting them down. Many Div2 & Div3 noticed him in Club & HS but the Div 1 coaches started takin note once he started playing Academy. Go figure
     
  15. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    My only question is did we need Academy setup for College scholarship purposes??
    Take away the Academy setup and most of these clubs would clash in Regional games and then against other Region Top Teams in National Top Tournaments like Dallas Cup, Surf Cup. Disney Cup, etc. because they seem to find each other anyways looking to get Ranked higher.
    D1 College scouts would scout these games anyways since they will also look at top rankings and figure there is some good talent there.
    I thought Academies would look to dish out Pro players at a higher rate as main goal. Not college players D1 as main goal.
    All they have done up to now is make the college scouts work a little easier in finding the players they would have found anyways.
    Does it filter more of the better talent?? Sure.
    But are we improving our output of players through Academy Player Development?? The only way to prove that is by having more and more players turn pro.
    Otherwise we are just making Club Names sound better.
     
  16. gr8cgar

    gr8cgar New Member

    May 19, 2014
    Pacific Northwest
    #66 gr8cgar, May 21, 2014
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
    No, I do not think we needed the Academy for College scholarship purpose.

    But colleges are benefiting from the academy system no doubt so D1 schools are looking that direction for sure now. I do believe that Academy is improving the quality of soccer. Do you believe the academy teams are helping to improve the quality of soccer in general?

    The majority of players entering the MLS still goes thru college ranks 1st (even if just for a couple of yrs) or from overseas. Yes there is always gonna be a exception but most will not be ready to play professionally for another couple yrs after the graduate from High School anyhow. Even just a couple yrs at college will help bridge that gap and in the US this is the primary method, at this time.. What will get interesting is if the MLS Academy Teams decide to try to start making players choice between soccer or college. Thus making sure that these professional clubs control the play & develop of the very best who have a chance at turning pro.

    But using a simple pass or fail grade for academy by counting the number of players going pro's immediately after U18 academy is a little unrealistic at this time. I believe real measuring stick for now is are they improving the quality of players that do finally reach the MLS, even if it comes after a additional 2-4 yrs of college.

    FYI... I kinda believe that there are too many academy teams and yes some do just look like clubs with fancier names.
     
  17. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Yes, but colleges are benefiting only in the fact that they have to work less to get the same players they would have gotten to anyways. There arent that many College scholarships for soccer. There is no way of proving that Academy was needed to improve College soccer. The only measuring stick that can be used regarding on how effective Academy truly is in p[layer development, is by seeing how many more Pro players they are dishing out than before Academy status.
    Afterall, most of these Academy clubs existed before given Academy status.
    I personally dont think they are making much of a difference. The setup was basically already there but just not with the sophistacted "Academy" name.
    Of all the players playing pro in Mexico, for example, only a handful played any Academy and of those most only did 1 year with an Academy. The great majority came from High School Soccer and regular club soccer.
    If the best that are playing the best and training with the best, then best pro players should be coming out of that setup or at least the great majority of them.
    No, only in USA do we say that they are not ready to play pro right out of High School. Everywhere else they are expected to play pro at 17-18 years old. 20-22 is often too late. College doesnt help bridge any gaps. Actually, what is said is that college soccer works against your possabilities of playing pro because of the minimal months of training and playing and quality of soccer played.
    MLS, exactly my point. Shouldnt we already be seeing a greater effort on their part to develop their own pros and sign them given how heavily promoted Academy setup is??
    Whats unrealistic to me is promoting something as better that has not yet proven it. Should we give it time ?? Sure. Should we promote it as the best thing or better than what we had before?? Sure, but tell me why.
    We develop zero creative players. No go to forwards or creative mids. Thats the measuring stick I would use.
     
  18. midsouthsoccer

    Mar 3, 2011
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree with so much that has been said on page 3 of this post that I can't figure out how to do so many multiple quotes. I think most of the premise in everyone's response is the inability to see forest from the trees.

    In the mythical land of umpa world, the population is very poor. There are not many opportunities that the people in the land of umpa in terms of employment, education, government resources. In the land of umpa, wombat has been the most popular sport for 100 years. Most of the kids (98%) in the land of umpa play wombat every day, dreaming of joining the professional wombat league. A lot of these kids don't even go to school but instead play wombat every second with family or friends. When they go home at night their dad is usually watching wombat and they watch it with him. For many of them wombat is the only way to make enough money to leave the land of umpa.

    In the mythical island of oopsy the economy is much better. Most people expect that if they study well in school they can go to college and get a good job. Since they have more opportunities, they get exposed to many different sports (not just wombat). Wombat is still a relatively new sport also, most of their parents have never played it. They also go to school every day and when they come home before they can play their parents make them finish the home work. A portion of these kids (about 20%) play wombat. Some of these kids are good athletes and very competitive but most of them are told (80%) that their education is the most important. Most of these kids will go to college and get an okay job somewhere, but not many of them ever play wombat professionally.

    Are we surprised that the residents of umpa are good at wombat? We sure do act like it, with post after post pontificating on why. Where are we now?

    Well now the kids that live on oopsy have parents that have played the sport. While their education is still foremost they are now significantly advanced technically with the ball than their predecessors were 20 years earlier. They also get to play video games and watch wombat on TV. The land of oopsy is going to get a lot better at wombat in the next 5-10 years and surprise a lot of folks.
     
  19. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    Let me entertain this.
    I agree with all that but why do we need Academy Soccer in the land of OOPSY if college is main target??
    Scholarships were the same coming from college soccer and scouting was basically the same as the richer/bigger clubs were already sponsoring the better talent in their local areas.
    The initial purpose of Academy soccer was not to help more players get college scolarships or placement. That was already handling itself.
    It is not a surprise that the residents of UMPA are better at WOMBAT. Just like its not a surprise that Academy has not improved the level of WOMBAT in the great land of OOPSY.
     
  20. arreola

    arreola Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago
    And again, the only way to prove we are getting better at WOMBAT is on the International Stage. Not college play.
     
  21. gr8cgar

    gr8cgar New Member

    May 19, 2014
    Pacific Northwest
    I know I'm not adding anything BUT I almost pissed my pants laughing ..just luv the land of UMPA & OOPYS. I'm all smiles here
     

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