Who Is The Greatest Dribbler Ever

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Dearman, May 16, 2010.

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The Greatest Dribbler Ever

  1. Garrincha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Maradona

    3 vote(s)
    37.5%
  3. George Best

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. Ronaldo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Messi

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  6. Impossible to know

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  7. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #3051 JamesBH11, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    For your info number 99: Best player in Copa tourney = MVP = same o' = OK ?
    (standard term in football or any sports: best player, but more elegant term to modern time = MVP - which borrowed from NBA OK?)

    Now, you';re a half Argnetina fan so you might not know this:
    - Falero was topscorer copa 47, but it was Moreno who won best player (MVP)
    - Pedernera won MVP (best player) copa 45 but Medina was topscorer OK?)
    - Pele MVP (best player) copa 59 + Topscorer Copa59

    you don't have to thanks me .. just ask ... LOL
     
  2. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    James let be honest about something here. You always hit us with the majority vs minority thing in Ro-Ro. But it is clear that on Messi matters the majority of the world already regards the man a top 5 all timer. And suddenly you violate your own set of rules (majority vs minority) and go against what the majority thinks that Messi is a potential all time best. So can't you see you are among the minority now?

    You cannot have your own set of rules (majority vs minority opinion) applied in one thread and then ignore them in another thread. That makes you hypocritical. Don't blame me for saying it. But this is the truth. Go back and read your own posts back to back and see how inconsistent your arguments are.

    Either you stay consistent with your own set of rules or you just drop it for the sake of fairness!

    And for the sake of variety would you do us the favour and stop posting in bold caps lock coloured italic, are you coloured blind or something?

    @Pipiolo
     
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  3. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I agree R9 didnt take his best form into world cup 1998 but he was still a formidable presence on the pitch as he was in 2002... He scored vital goals.. The 1998 team were looking good before the world cup but at the tournament they flattered to decieve.. Romario's performance in 1994 was better than ronaldos in 98.. Romario was playing alongside dunga silva mazinho zinho in a workman like brazil team so it was left to him to provide his magic and to a lesser extent bebeto. But romario was the difference.. In 2002 i thought rivaldo was the best brazilian player..
     
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  4. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes, completely agree on this.
     
  5. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    At least someone who is showing to have some decency to say it the way it is.

    I agree with all the above except to underpin a vital piece. Albeit that Dunga and Mauro Silva and Jorginho did a great job to take care of the midfield and give Bebeto and Romario the freedom in the attack, NT98 in turn was a stronger and more stable midfield at least on paper. Do not forget Dunga was there in 98 yet again. This is no excuse of me to make 94 look better but in the end NT94 faced bigger opponents then either 98 or 02 squads. The only real opponent that made the life difficult to some extent for squad 98 and 02 were Holland & France/98 and England/02. All else was a easy walk in the park for NT98 and NT02. However not the same could be said of NT94. They had to face not only more traditional football nations (Holland, Russia, Sweden twice, Italy final) Let's be honest Brazil98 and 02 walked over small football teams like Costa Rica or China, it was kind of a joke really. And do not forget that winning WC94 meant a lot more to Brazil then any other WC thereafter. In 1994 Brazilians were anxious to put an end to the 24 years of not seeing their NT win anything in WC's. So NT94 had a greater moral responsibility on their shoulders. And this is something James would not want to admit nor reckon for obvious reasons known to some of us. He just don't want to give Romario the credit for it for it will make his idol R9 look weak for having Romario praised as a WC hero.

    Also, I am glad to see how you regard Rivaldo as the best. Something that will make the worms turn in @JamesBH11 stomach tonight.

    But again, 99.9% of your post above sums it up accurately.

    @Pipiolo finally we have another member here (Giles) agreeing that Rivaldo was the best Brazilian of NT02.
     
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  6. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I missed the points that you just mentioned so you said em for me ! And yes the 1994 world cup was a tournament brazil just had to win.. It had been 24 years and the pressure was immense.. Thats why brazil set up the team the way they did... And some people on here may not agree but i thought rivaldo was easily just as good as zidane
     
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  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #3057 JamesBH11, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    Brazil are always a Must win team at every WC - bar WC1990 as the worst ever assemblied team and WC02 for their bad WC qual stage.

    At WC94, Romairo was so brilliant and so was Bebeto (many disregarded him there) to have carried Brazil into the Final. They could have won more ... "convincingly" (w/o PS) if not Baresi came back on time (injured) and put out the greatest performance in that final (MoM)

    At WC98, Brazil were "heavily" pressure to win their penta + retain the WC title ... due to Ronaldo and Romairo (later on withdrawn by the coahces)
    Now, in term of "individual contribution" in general, I agree Rivaldo was same to Zidane there (if we do not put much weight difference in the final goals) however, Zidane displayed as a "true conductor" (playmaker) for France, while Rivaldo struggled in that role, but more like a very good AM/FW in that tourney.
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Indeed, and if you notice another Brazilian poster (@gilmour86) repped the post.
     
  9. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #3059 greatstriker11, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    You seem to have moderated your views a bit now on NT94. I am a bit surprised but pleased nonetheless.

    However, WC98 wasn't a pressure on NT98 ...due to Ronaldo and Romario. The pressure wasn't on due to a player at all but simply because Selecao were FIFA number 1 ranking in the world and that was a natural thing. Also, any title holder will enter the next WC with pressure on their shoulders to defend their title. Pretty much like Spain right now is expected from the Spanish people to retain the title. You give too much importance to a particular player in a squad. Football is still a team sport you know? So it was because of Ronaldo or Romario or Rivaldo or anybody else but the simple fact that Selecao in 1998 was ranked #1 and were expected to defend the title they won in the previous WC. @Pipiolo

    And I do agree that Ronaldo was as good as Zidane in 98. He gave some sporadic moments of brilliance now and then. Me personally I didn't see great brilliance coming from Zidane either. His final match goals gave the final punch of brilliance but i wouldn't say they those two headers were worth of hall of fame either.

    With the exception of the two goals Ronaldo scored in the final, he didn't shine at all in WC02. He just did what is expected of a striker, that is to score. But he didn't score goals against major opponents the way Romario and Bebeto did (e.g. Holland, Sweden etc) in WC94. I have not seen Ronaldo give a world class assist the way Romario did vs USA. That was world class dribble followed by clinical assist for Bebeto to score the cluch goal of the match. And this is why the world (pundit and non-pundits) have regarded Romario to be a WC hero. He was not Maradona, sure! But he promised his country and he took full responsibility before going there. And he had an 80% stake in all victories and goals for Nt94, which made him mvp. 5+1PK+2 assists out of a total of 11 goals of NT94 is no shit either. That's why FIFA honoured him by including him in the WC all time dream team. And this I do not say now to mock you but it is a fact that you do not want to acknowledge. A fact held by the majority of the world who saw WC94. So this is what annoyed me to see you break your own rules of "majority vs minority" while yourself violates the rule for R11 in WC94.

    I hope understand. And respect no less.
     
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  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #3060 JamesBH11, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
    mmm no I never changed my view whatsoever.
    Romario and Bebeto were all the reasons that Brazil advanced to WC94 final with a big chance to win. However, they both did not "win" the WC per se by scoring - but that owed by both Baresi and Maldini in that game = fact.

    WC98 was even more pressure to the team (then 94)
    1- WC holder
    2- Ro-Ro partner
    3- R9 a new Pele to conquer the world stage for the first time (no one expected that much pressure on Romario at WC94 - at least not the same = fact)
    ===========================================

    Many "speculated" Ronaldo suffered his "convulsive or nervous breakdown" since a lot of MEDIA back then put out a news (before the final game) that R9 "failed " so far to live up with Pele's shadow at WC ... with ONLY 4gaols+3ass/first 6games ....

    Another huge mistake on R9 part, for he once in an interview before the WC started, he said " Pele is a greatest player, but one should revise his goals career. I don;t want to compare to him, but I will go out and score a lot of gaols in WC" (poor lad 20yrs old naivety)
     
  11. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Actually james.. Brazil in 1990 were among the favourites .. They were expected to play much better than they did.. They had won the copa america 1989 with romario but romario wasnt fully fit for the world cup.. Careca was still a class act going into the world cup but muller had a shocking tournament.. His miss at the end against argentina was the final nail in the coffin for the remaining players of the 1980s generation branco alemao and careca .. The only 2 things i remember muller doing well was his low cross for carecas goal against sweden and his tap in against scotland.. Muller was good for sau paulo but he struggled in the italian league and was not on the level of careca romario or bebeto
     
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  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I do not disagree ... as I said Brazil were always a "contender" at WC event
    But internally, every Brazil fan should or would have known that WC90 team quality (and formation) were far from their "national fame" per se
     
  13. gilmour86

    gilmour86 Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Now the WC is reduced to the final game? Romário was still good against italians parking the bus that time. We can also focus on Ronaldo low points on WC. In WC98, he was owned by Thuram in a fashion way, barely touched the ball. In WC02 he was onwed by Ferdinand in Qf and Brazil advanced due to Ronaldinho and Rivaldo talent. And, of course, in WC06 he was owned again by the french defenders. And Zidane deliberately did a sombrero to humiliate him during that game. According to France Football, Ronaldo was the worst brazilian player in that game (rating 2/6).
     
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  14. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I had enough with you ignoring and denying a wide consensus among Brazilians. You are the minority here when it comes to pressure Nt94 vs NT98. It is a very skewed views you got of both respective WC. And not even with the first hand witness accounts of Brazilian members here you won't consider that you might be on the wrong side.

    I am gonna let you be and wish you all the best with your bubble of skewed view on NT94 vs NT98. But I am pretty sure that R9 got do it. I wonder if R9 played in NT94 and scored if that would have changed your views? I guess it would!

    Had enough of debating with a thick tall concrete wall. Have a good one.
     
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  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    YES and NO, but the final is clearly the DECIDED game for the winner OK?
    Let me ask you this if you can answer without WIKI: who was WC38 finalist? and who was Euro 68 finalist? THINK

    now, back to RO-RO:
    If you want to compare the FULL FIT Romario to a HALF FIT Ronaldo? then I agree LOL
     
  16. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Because you said so?

    You are not even Latin American what do you know or ought to know about how Brazilians see their own NT.

    Mate, wake the f u c k up!
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    that;s why I like Pipiolo more even you two share the similar :stubborness. But often Pipiolo control himself clean and nice ... even when he LOST.

    So NOT take thing "personal" as it is FOOTBALL not your diary attack.
    Do not wonder why I disregard some of your "repetitive questions" (which were well addressed in multiple of 100 posts before)
     
  18. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think the pressure got to ronaldo throughout the 1998 world cup .. Where as romario revelled and excelled under the pressure of 1994 .. Ronaldo was clearly not right in the final but france would have beaten them anyway.. The whole brazilian team was rubbish in the final and they werent much better against holland.. But i still rate R9 highly ... Changing the subject slightly does anyone else think that zidanes performance at world cup 1998 is overrated a bit ?
     
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  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Can't remember ever losing to you, especially in the topic of Ronaldo. Great player but too overhyped, and ultimately did not give the WC performance that most expected from him.
     
  20. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Full fit Ronaldo was in 96/97 and full fit Romario was 93/94. And as far as I am concerned Romario's 93/94 year was twice better then Ronaldo in 96/97

    Here is the proof:

    Ronaldo 96/97: Copa America97, ConfedCup, FIFA player of the year, Pichichi, Copa Del Rey, UEFA Cup. Nothing more!
    Romario 93/94; FIFA World Cup Champion, WC94 MVP, WC94 Silver ball, FIFA player of the year, La Liga, Pichichi, UCL finalist!

    And do not forget that Romario gave an historical performance vs Real Madrid El classico that Catalans will never forget till today. Ronaldo never own Real Madrid the way Romari o did.

    So looking at who out of the two won bigger titles in that single year, you can see Romario beats Ronaldo big time!
    Which is at odd whit what you R9 fanboys usually and falsely claim. You guys are deluded!

    Ronaldo never had the highest peak in football. It is a lie!
     
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  21. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well considering how you call us ignorant and other names, my expression is very lenient

    You disregard my question? Actually, you avoid questions when you are left blank!

    You love stats don't you?

    Romario: 8 times top scorer, of which 6 came in Europe
    Ronaldo: 3 times top scorer.

    How about that for stats?
     
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  22. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Zidane may be considered one of the top half dozen performers of WC98, obviously his suspension and missing two matches hurt his standing. On the other hand, the two goals in the final and his great passing serve to up it above his peers. I wouldn't rate him as the best or second best player of that tournament, but anywhere between three and six is reasonable.
     
  23. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Man I just saw that 1990 Brazil team playing against Argentina, if they play that game 10 times, Brazil wins 9 of them.

    That team wasn't bad, that team controlled the mid brilliantly and attacked really well too. Got to remember that team won the Copa America just 1 year earlier, I think people put that team as a bad team because of the result and because he played a 3 - 5 - 2 , but the team was good.
    Maradona had 1 play, made the difference sure, but you hold maradona to just 1 play in 90 minutes you are a good team.

    Then if you add the countless scoring opportunities missed by Brazil, it's kind of luck that Argentina got past them.
     
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  24. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    @JamesBH11

    Cherry picking is your most valuable asset your resort to in a debate. Let me elaborate.

    You always put enphasis on final match performance. And you have used it against Romario WC94 final.

    But if you were fair, why did you ignore Romario great header in final match of Copa America 89 vs Uruguay?

    Why did you ignore Romario's goal in final match vs Russia in Summer Olympic 88 which got them Silver?

    And what about Ronaldo nasty performance in WC98 final? (BIG FINAL)

    Cherry picking Romario's worse vs Ronaldo's best won't go unnoticed to us.

    And this is the reason why you deserve to be treated the way I do. I do not regret it for one minute, no shit!

    @Pipiolo @gilmour86
     
  25. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well i am not latin american either but i have studied watched and collected brazilian football since i was around 8 years old.. So i have a fair amount of knowledge on brazil.. Last week i was ordering a chinese takeaway and i asked my girlfriend if she wanted to watch a movie... And she suggested brazil - france 1986 world cup quarter final !!! It suddenly struck me that i have either brainwashed her or i have the ideal relationship to carry on being a sad nostalgic football nerd !!
    Silly story but i had to mention it !!
     
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