Who Is The Greatest Dribbler Ever

nice try .. and that crown is for the kids to practice drawing in their kindergardens, nothing to do with football LOL

For once, Messi (2010-12) was like R9 in 96-98 as a HOPE to be there with Pele, but now is history ...

 

What did he do between 2013 and now that made him lose this hope?

 

sorry not "lose" but already "lost" the battle with Pele since WC2010, and Copa 2011.
(Pele won 2 WCs with 2 great performance already at 17 and then 29yrs old, plus he was topscorer + MVP Copa 59 at 18yrs old)

I just can not imagine Messi will win 2 WCs + 1 great Copa + 8 more topscorers + 4more ligas to ctach the KING (in his next 5,6 years left) ????

However, to be fair, Messi still has hope to catch other top5 (#2 to #5) all time:

2- Maradona: Messi needs WC14 winning (plus great performance) and another WC18 finalist
3- Cruijff: Messi needs WC14 finalists with a great performance there + 1 or 2 more UCL
4- Di Stefano: Messi needs 3 more UCL with Barca and 3 more ligas
5- Puskas: Messi needs WC14 finalist and a great performance + 2 more UCL
6- Platini: Messi needs to win Copa16 with great perfomrance, and a very good performance in WC14 +18
...
You want more????
(even I exclude Beckenbauer since he was a DM/CB role: he won 1 WC74+ WCfinalist 66 + 1 Euro 72 + WC70 3rd for your info)
even I am too generous to "assume" Messi is already better then Garrincha, Zidane, Ronaldo, Eusebio, Bobby Charlton G.Best .... here as to answer your "wonder"

 

@Jaweirdo you're wasting your time with James.

Besides being a fanboy who like to waste space with childish posters he sees the world (of football) in black and white.

And when you make a strong valid point he will not honour you with a satisfying answer and avoid your questions with evasive trickery like e.g. quoting stupid interviews, cherry picking a gazillion dodgy lists favouring his views, and then tell you that you're among the minority. This style of him is becoming obvious to most members here, some are already avoiding direct confrontations with him. I know, I can see it.

Speaking about it, @JamesBH11 since you so much give importance to majority vs minority in Ro-Ro how is it that the current majority of the football community regard Messi as already an top 5 all timer while you not?

That means you have broken your own set of rules yet again, since you seem to be in the minority now, aren't you?

The fact is that today Messi has already outperformed R9 by a mile a long time ago in Club football. And he still has a fair chance to emulate Pele's record since he still has at least 2 more WC to go at fairly young age.

And this bothers you to the point that your wasting space here with those childish posters above. Bad loser!

James you are predictable and all your intentions are pretty clear.

Take a break mate! It's just a game.

 

No disrespect greatstriker11 but we've talked about it before. The link you yourself posted (BBC article) is a good example. You said: "There's so many Dutch consultant analyst out there giving advises to big football nations." Which is historically speaking about right. It just doesn't happen the other way around for obvious reasons.

 

Is this messi debate still going on ?!! ... Its easy to conclude.. In my honest opinion Messi really needs to have a great world cup and inspire argentina to a great performance.. He needs to shine away from the company of xavi iniesta and the rest.. I know he is a great player thats not even debatable but he's gotta do it at international level and prove his genius away from barcelona's system.. He should be at his peak this world cup so we shall see

 

And if he fails at WC where in terms of rankings would you place him, or better said where in the company of the usual top 5 all timers?

 

I guess it comes down to personal taste in football.. I would much rather watch maradona, R9 , ronaldinho, baggio, rivaldo etc at their peaks than messi.. It doesnt mean i dont rate messi because i absolutely love to watch him.. But in my humble opinion he isnt as interesting to watch as the other greats..

 

Pele was not MVP of CA59, he was only the top scorer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_South_American_Championship_(Argentina)

If Messi leads Argentina to a CA trophy as best player, that's enough to surpass Pele in that tournament (who could not win it himself).
At club level, he has already surpassed him: Messi has three CLs and two CWCs against two Libertadores and two Inter-continentals by Pele. The Barcelona of 05 to 13 is arguably the greatest European side of the past 30 years along with the AC Milan of 87 to 95. In this respect, the player Messi should aim for is not Pele but DiStefano or Puskas.
At WC level, I don't think Messi will match Pele's two WCs. The only way to challenge him would be by a performance on par with Maradona at WC86, but I just don't see that happening either. So Pele will most likely have the advantage here.
Finally, comparing league titles is not a valid argument here, since Brazil did not have a league for most of Pele's playing career. Also, in Real Madrid, Messi constantly faces a much stronger team than any of Santos' opponents during Pele's time.

 

What if messi wins the next 3 world cups and 2 copa Americas? Or does that still not beat Pele becausr he didn't win one at 17

 

Yes that would change everything !! I just hope messi can put on a show at brazil 2014.. The world cup needs a great performance from a great player and the stage is set for him.. A world cup in south america. It could be his world cup

 

I agree, it's been a long time since a great player had a great WC when the expectations were set upon him. I would say the last ones were Romario, Baggio, Stoichkov and Hagi at WC94. Zidane had a very good one at WC06, not a great one IMO, but he was considered past his prime and the expectations were not there as high as they had been for WC02. Same with Ronaldo, who played well and showed flashes of brilliance at WC98 but it falls short of a legendary performance, and Forlan, Sneijder and Muller were mostly surprises at WC10 (plus none of them is truly a great performance). Hopefully, Messi can bring back a time when the great stars usually performed to expectations at the biggest tournament of all.

 

So clearly and accurate what you have summed up here.

 

I was of course only playing devils advocate to James' theory. I realize how unlikely that is

 

Try impossible, no nation is going to win three consecutive WCs, LOL. Imagine how boring international football would be if that was the case.

 

The one dominating performance I remember was R9 in 1998, which was also my favorite world cup to date. My favorite match being between Brazil and Holland. Zidane vs Brazil in 06 stands out, but that's only one match. I watched the world cup in 1994 but was too young to formulate a valid opinion.

 

Was Ronaldo really dominant that tournament? 4 goals and 1 assist in seven matches is not bad but hardly legendary. Plus he was very quite against Denmark and invisible against France, except for a one on one against Barthez which the French keeper won.

 

Do not expose limit knowledge as I already give you the link a while back - GOOGLE it oK?

 

For your info 4goals+3ass/6games (bar the final half fit half soul) - R9 had to play like half striker half playmaker in that team 98 = (or false 9)
Plus he was ONLY 21yrs old at time ...

At Copa 97, only 20yrs old R9 led the team to glory 5goals+3asss/6games won MVP

 

Nail on the head there.. Totally agree

 

There was no MVP/Player of the Tournament/Golden Ball during Copa America 59.

I know the info, thank you very much. He was still not dominant (and his only assist was to Bebeto by the way).

 

Sad though, cause Brazil of 94 captivated the Brazilian (and Latin American) people more then Brazil 98. At least from an expectation perspective. Do not listen to James says. He knows nothing about Brazilian nor Latin American culture. Let alone latin American football culture. Spending a few weeks tanning on Ipanema doesn't make one expert on Brazilian football either. WC94 meant a lot more to the Brazilian people then did WC98 and WC02. Period.

Having said that, I do respect your preference for WC98 though. But personally I didn't see any magic in R9 in any WC he played. High expectation but little delivered in terms of a game to remember. I do remember Zidane in final 98 but can;t say the same for R9 in any WC match. I always have to rewatch youtube to refresh my mind.

 

LMAO

@JamesBH11 actually believes he knows more about Brazilian football than not just us, but posters like @Lucas Gomes , @celito and @Guigs

 

Exactly!

Because I am fluent in Spanish (father language) and Dutch, when I watch Eredivisie I know what the Dutch commentators commented on TV during matches involving Romario and Ronaldo. And when I watch La Liga the same goes. And when I watch Carioca league on TV I can understand >80% what they saying. So I have sympathized and experience what Latin Americans felt about there football and know how the locals feel. I know what Brazilians think of Ronaldo and of Pele. James all he knows is derived from some magazines and popular views outside Brazil and Latin America. And even though it may sound odd but it is a true case that if your language is limited to English you're missing a great deal of the culture and the impact those players had on the local populous. So here you have James coming to us (who do speak the local language) and lecture us on Brazilian football culture. I mean when @celito and @Lucas Gomes say something about Brazilian football I will shut my mouth and listen. But James in turn, must be pretentious to know better. How arrogant innit?