RSL vs SKC, Saturday, 4/5 at 6:30 our time

Discussion in 'Real Salt Lake' started by 2nd Mouse, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That we have a disciplinary committee is a step in the right directions. No, they are not consistent. But the tackle you bring up specifically was punished. So have they improved? I would say yes. Is there room for improvement? Obviously.

    I think the league is trying to find an identity right now. It was and still somewhat is a physical league. Kind of similar to the EPL. However, the trend lately is to find south and central american talent. Thus, the league is in kind of halfway point. I personally wouldn't want to see the league become something similar to La Liga where diving is the norm and you can't seem to touch a player (like what Borg yells advocates). I'm a big fan of the idea of a disciplinary committee and honestly don't envy what they have to do.
     
  2. RoyalNonesuch

    RoyalNonesuch Member+

    May 10, 2009
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was joking about Borg - but you're probably right. Maybe a few weeks of radical red card issuance would clean up the more goon-ish side of MLS. But to do that right they ALSO have to seriously card diving.
     
  3. Speedybacon

    Speedybacon Member

    Feb 1, 2007
    Orem, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they start being more strict on diving i think Garcia is going to get a lot of cards. It seems like he goes down far too easily.
     
  4. RSLer

    RSLer Member+

    Sep 24, 2008
    Stansbury Park, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Our main diving card threat left with Espy. Garcia hasn't really caught my eye in this regard. Javi embellishes, but doesn't truly dive (much) IMHO.
     
  5. UPinSLC

    UPinSLC Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    SL,UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Until TEAMS like SJ and KC are consistently punished and held accountable for the crap style of play they put out on the field we won't see the league grow up to be considered truly one of the best. What's even more frustrating is that those styles of play are now universally considered a tactic or gameplan and accepted. Why? It's just thug ball, foul the crap out of your opponent until the ref decides to finally call something (or he becomes conditioned to the constant fouling and doesn't call anything), and then hoof it into the box and hope one of your players gets onto the end of it. It's ugly. It reminds me of RSL's early years where we played nothing but direct crap soccer and were awful as an organization. It needs to go away, but we need refs who have the balls to step in and pretty much call games that guarantee those teams are held accountable (and you'll see it in them consistently having players sent off and them LOSING games like they should).
     
  6. Taragui

    Taragui Member+

    Aug 13, 2006
    Northern Utah
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    This filters down even to the youth leagues. I remember a game in American Fork where the ref told the captains at the beginning that she liked "physical" play, so don't expect a lot of fouls to be called. End result: one conscussion, one broken arm and a broken toe. And this was U-12 girls. I am sure escalates as the age increases.
     
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  7. RoyalNonesuch

    RoyalNonesuch Member+

    May 10, 2009
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    San Jose = West Ham

    If you saw the West Ham v Liverpool match this week...Andy Carroll hit the keeper's head and arms to knock a ball free - and the Hammers scored off the loose ball. Reminds me a bit of Gordon taking Rimando out of the play (before the ball arrived) on which SJ equalized.

    The first picture shows it in process. The ball did get knocked free, and was knocked in almost immediately by another WHU player.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...imon-Mignolet-ride-did-penalties-spot-on.html
     
  8. RSLer

    RSLer Member+

    Sep 24, 2008
    Stansbury Park, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I saw it the EPL Review show last night. The ref not only got it wrong, he went to the AR and talked to him about it. The AR told him it was a foul. The ref STILL didn't call it. As botched a job as you'll see.
     
  9. El-ahrairah

    El-ahrairah Member+

    Sep 20, 2004
    Wanker County
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And people call soccer a "sissy" sport.
     
  10. elkaholic

    elkaholic Member+

    May 28, 2009
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just looked at the pics posted on the RSL Facebook page. Wow. Looks like Zusi was giving Beckerman a hand job in a few of those pics. No wonder Beckerman was off....I bet that is quite a distraction when you are trying to play soccer.
     
  11. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would take more than a few weeks, but that would work over time.

    Most importantly, you need more eyes on the field to actually see what's happening to ensure accurate calls are being made.

    Expectancy theory (a fairly well-validated theory of motivating behavior) says that people will act based on the combination of their feeling that they can do what is asked of them, that they value the outcome that can be obtained and that there is a clear relationship between their behavior and the outcome.

    If people think they are treated fairly with respect to the rules, they will act in accordance to the rules.

    In this context, when players feel like the following three things are generally true (generally to be expected): if they foul it will be called and if you are fouled it is called on the infringing player (both in proportion to severity according to the rules) and if there is no it won't be called. When all of those things happen, initially resulting in a big increase in fouls called, increase in cards, etc. But, within a few weeks, maybe a couple of months, the amount of fouling would drop a good bit, and the amount of diving would fall through the floor.

    The NBA added another floor referee in 1990. Initially increasing the number of fouls was the result (the highest number of fouls called in a game was in 1990). Then the players adjusted as they saw greater accuracy in both the calls made and the calls not made, and the number of fouls dropped dramatically. That was expectancy theory in action…

    Note that the addition of the two 5th(?) officials in Europa and Champions League has persisted for several years now. I don't know if they've been collecting data on fouls or what before implementing at national club levels. I can't tell if those officials actually make calls that the CRs pay attention to or not, or if they are barely tolerated. But, I have a feeling something good is seen, otherwise why is it persisting for so long?
     
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  12. SenordrummeR2

    SenordrummeR2 Member+

    Jul 21, 2008
    Layton, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems like that happened in quite a few games last week. Even the Iceman got to second base (or would this be third? shortstop? (XKCD Explanation))

    https://vine.co/v/MiP01QjqqXj
     
  13. SpiffCoug

    SpiffCoug Member

    Nov 10, 2004
    Orem, Ut
    Start handing out cards when warranted regardless if it's a second yellow or a straight red in a close game late. Doesn't matter if it's a foul or a dive. Call the game right.

    Managers and teams will adjust real quick when they start losing players and games due to players being sent of.
     
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  14. RSLer

    RSLer Member+

    Sep 24, 2008
    Stansbury Park, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've advocated this for years and have truly been surprised at the many traditionalists who are against it because it will "take away the flow of the game". Yet, they still manage to complain about officiating.
     
  15. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would only take away the flow of the game for the few weeks/months it takes for players to adjust.
     
  16. DrownedElf

    DrownedElf Member+

    Jul 5, 2010
    Ogden
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. Players will adjust when they realize they can't get away with it. That's why playoffs bother me, because the extra fouling and antics aren't called 'because they don't want to affect the outcome' yet they do because a more physical team winds up with an advantage because they can suddenly get away with more.
     
  17. JLaw

    JLaw Member

    Aug 15, 2008
    Happy Valley
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've never understood the "letting stuff go; it's the playoffs" rational. To me the rules of game should be the same regardless. I especially hate it in soccer where the more physical games I find less entertaining.
     
  18. DrownedElf

    DrownedElf Member+

    Jul 5, 2010
    Ogden
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hate it regarding reds/second yellows. Whether its regular season or playoffs, I hate when you see a ref give a player 5 warnings and not give them a second yellow, when there are often times yellows given out to other players for the same things that guy is getting away with. You can tell the players know this and sometimes really push their limits because the ref 'doesn't want to affect the game'

    I'd be perfectly happy if they started calling players on this crap and carding/sending off players for it. Would it suck for a month or so? Absolutely. But the teams would adjust, and this sort of behavior would wind up greatly reduced. It'd be nice to watch an actual game of soccer, instead of the thug ball that some teams love to employ.
     
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  19. UPinSLC

    UPinSLC Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    SL,UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was a fine example of this last weekend in the Seattle vs FCD match, Lamar Neagle clearly should have gotten a second yellow, but the ref didn't want to leave a big impact on the match so he just gave Neagle a warning despite already haven gotten a yellow for a foul earlier in the game. Stupid stuff like that pisses me off more than anything in this game, the lack of consistency from the refs is really my biggest pet peeve.
     
  20. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This "ref doesn't want to affect the game" thinking is the kind of thing that teachers face regularly. At the end of every semester I have several students that will not get the grade needed to graduate when they want, to progress in their degree, sometimes to stay in school. Sometimes I have plagiarism (of various levels of infraction) to deal with and it has occasionally meant F in the course, the student flunking out, not graduating, etc. Calling a student on cheating is very similar to pulling a red card. Nearly every semester I have to do it once or more. If I let it slide, as many instructors do because I don't want to have a big negative effect on that student's life, career prospects… don't want to have a big effect on 'his game', I'd be undermining the legitimacy of the educational process, what employers can generally count on from the students we graduate, etc. And, the student would suffer something they can deal with, getting fired from a job is worse. So, I make sure I'm fair and consistent as I can be, but I never shy from doing what I think is right. *

    When a student has done poorly in a class, it is their performance, not my assessment, that is failing them. They partied that week before the paper was due, they didn't come get help when they didn't understand a particular issue, they didn't figure out 3 semesters ago that their roommate was toxic and moved out before, semester after semester, their GPA degraded to eventual dismissal from the University.

    The ref needs to realize that the player is responsible for getting a card, for being sent off. When the player acts irresponsibly, the most fair and proper thing to do in both the short and long run is to call the foul, pull the card out of the pocket, or whatever is needed that fits the error.

    *Just yesterday I spotted a collection of about 15 pages of notes folded in half and then in half again, jammed behind the water pipe in a men's room stall. A classic cheating move in which a student 'absolutely must use the restroom' and reads up on a few things while taking an exam. Based on the material and proximity to classroom we think we've identified who/what/when it was done. A student doing that will very likely be failed in the class, though it will be up to the instructor, the Dean of Students, and possibly a Judicial Board.
     
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  21. SpiffCoug

    SpiffCoug Member

    Nov 10, 2004
    Orem, Ut
    Yep, by deciding not to affect the outcome of the game (e.g. Collen not getting a 2nd yellow in MLS Cup) you're actually deciding to affect the outcome of the game.
     
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  22. DrownedElf

    DrownedElf Member+

    Jul 5, 2010
    Ogden
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what cracks me up. No matter what they do they're affecting the game. It's the nature of being the official. Call the game properly and nobody will have a legitimate complaint. Be inconsistent, and it just makes everything more frustrating for everyone.
     
  23. El-ahrairah

    El-ahrairah Member+

    Sep 20, 2004
    Wanker County
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sigh. Wouldn't it be nice if we coax Pierluigi Collina out of retirement and then clone enough of him to take over all the referee duties in the MLS.
     
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