Fagundez, to me, projects better as an international because of the fact that he can make something happen if given an eyelash of space. Nagbe's speed and quickness are definitely above average, but Fagundez's ability in tight spaces and ability to create something out of nothing have the potential to be elite.
Nagbe isn't a pure attacking player. He's a weird half attacker/ half central midfielder hybrid. He does need to improve his finishing and offensive play, but just comparing his points output with Fagundez is missing the fact that Nagbe can play that thing called defense and can also operate centrally. If the question is who is a better winger, sure Fagundez is competitive with Nagbe and might even be better, but that comparison isn't fair to Nagbe.
Between the two of them, they have the best shot of answering the "Who is going to replace Donovan and Dempsey" question. Nagbe is certainly more of a two-way player, and Fagundez has the potential to be an elite attacking player. Add those two to the pool, and I feel a lot better about where the goals are going to be coming from in the future. I guess what I'm saying is that its irritating that those two aren't citizens yet despite having lived here for nearly 40 years combined.
Didnt Nagbe break out and take his game to another level last season? I think that matters in that argument considering Nagbe's first couple years and his last one are essentially different players. Plus stats are not even close to everything when judging players. Nagbe does a better job defending and has much more influence on the run of play, Fagundez in more games is just a poacher who contributes nothing to the run of play. Fagundez might end up better who knows, but just judging them right now I'd probably take Nagbe
Absolutely. Personally, I am not a big Nagbe fan for the nats but I understand totally why he will be part of the show. Having said that, Nagbe would be interesting playing the "1" in a 451 against Mexico at Azteca. They would have fits.
The closest thing to a Donovan replacement is Shea. Pity the maturity level hasn't been there with Brek. Fagundez vs Nagbe; different style of players who would fill different niches with the NT. Bit like superlatively comparing Michael Parkhurst to Omar Gonzalez when one plays CB with the NT and the other FB though both play CB in MLS. Edu's tight dribbling and passing are fine at international level including his latest match in which he went 11/11 passing with no lost balls; his time on the field occurred when Mexico were pressing hard and owning the possession. Should have done better on the goals in the NYRB match.
I think it is there with Nagbe, though. If the knock on him is that he doesn't impose himself on games, that sounds an awful lot like the book on LD from 2003-2009. Fagundez would be more toward the Dempsey side of the equation, with the creativity and the ability to score from out of nowhere.
Meh, think Nagbe's game is further from goal than Donovan's. The former is more of a ball winner and dribbler the physical side of whose game is based on power and lateral movement whereas the latter's is based on pace. I could see Nagbe playing in central midfield; Donovan, not so much.
My guess is the next Landon type or someone even close to being at his level will be a guy like Pelosi or Flores, in an academy abroad and who breaks through in the next few years at a big club.
I certainly agree that stats aren't everything, but people on this thread are talking about Nagbe as one of our next big attackers, and you'd be hard-pressed to name a single star attacking player in the world who has never posted big numbers. Even the "post-breakout" Nagbe's numbers have been pretty modest if you scale them properly. Combining the 2013 and 2014 regular seasons with the 2013 playoffs, he has 10 goals and 4 assists in 3673 minutes. That's 262 minutes per goal+assist. That's not as good as Benny Feilhaber (238 mins per), Justin Mapp (213 mins per), Shea Salinas (172 mins per), or Graham Zusi (170 mins per), and Nagbe doesn't have a bad team around him as an excuse. Nor does he have Fagundez' excuse of being very young. Yet people seem to be anointing Nagbe as another Landon Donovan. By no means would I rule out a significant national team role for him, but this comparison is unrealistic.
No, they're not. His first touch, tight dribbling (as you put it) and passing are why he couldn't hack it at Stoke and is back in MLS...
He doesn't have nearly the creativity, soccer brain or passing ability that LD does. As shown in his paucity of assists. Think this is interesting, can't wait to see him play more.
Zusi, Salinas, and Mapp get most of their assists from set pieces. I think Zusi had one assist from the run of play last year If you were making a case based purely on stats you would think Zusi would never be good enough for the National Team, a supposedly creative player only getting 1 assist from the run of play in MLS, yet he's become a starter.
Nah, Shea is not really like anyone else we have. Shea's vision/passing ability isn't near Donovan, neither is his control or finishing Nagbe, like Donovan has speed, ability to start counterattacks, passing, vision, and goalscoring abiltiy. That's why he gets the comparisons. I'm not saying he will be as good as Donovan but if there was one player I had to pick who was the most similar and could succeed him, it would be Nagbe
That wouldn't be a case based on stats. It'd be a case based on a cherry-picked anecdote. And while I agree that it'd be interesting to see a serious breakdown of open play assists vs set piece assists, it seems silly to deny Zusi's ability to set up scoring chances with his crossing, both in set pieces and in open play. As for Nagbe, his crossing numbers on whoscored are woeful. Over the course of 44 games, he has completed only 5 of 23 cross attempts. Probably goes a considerable way to explaining his poor assist numbers.
Against Houston Fagundez had 18 pass attempts, as I pointed out last year he is essentially a wide poacher. He operates largely on the periphery of his team's efforts until they get it around the box where his risk taking and skill come alive. Nagbe's role, long term, is to connect the attack in midfield and the final third. His role is more Iniesta while Diego is more comparable to Pedro. So the ability to retain possession, provide outlets, advance the ball into space, dribble out of pressure, and connect with teammates must be evaluated. Landon makes our attack better by working with teammates to put them or himself into space in the final third. Bradley does this in the middle third and is growing around the box. Final third connectors/creators coming down the MLS pipeline next cycle: Powers: Would operate slightly deeper than Nagbe, and just in front of Bradley. Think more about a Gerrard type role. Gil: Hasn't really learned to impose his will on games. Developing a solid two-way game, capable of moments of great creativity around the box but doesn't do that consistently. Shipp: Some good indicators but his best attribute seems to be delivering accurate service. Can he do that under pressure, on the move, from the run of play. Serna: Looks more like Nasri than David Silva. Joya: Fairly direct, skilled but doesn't see the whole field or consistently make prudent decisions.
Since he never played at Stoke, I don't see how you can have any idea why Edu never made it at Stoke. There are plenty of guys at Stoke who are absolute crap at first touch and tight dribbling and certainly passing, so I doubt it, even though I really don't know the answer either.
Edu gets so ponderous on the ball in some of the least appropriate moments. Last night he got the ball deep in his own midfield with plenty of support and a nice chunk of time. He takes a look at 3 or 4 obvious safe options and decides against them. Then he inexplicably plays square under increasing pressure and his pass gets stolen for a dangerous opportunity. I can understand passing up on the safe nearby options, I guess, but at that point you better be looking at your keeper or over the top, because your midfield has been flooded and your safe options are now covered. The ball he tried to play was no improvement over any of the options he passed up. So he increased his risks and removed his rewards in a dangerous spot under little initial pressure. Any way it was a telling play. Makes me worry about Mo. If you're going to linger on the ball in a bad spot, you have to know what the risks and rewards are.
I don't disagree with any of that which is why I stressed that there was another element in his game that needed development and I was only focused on respective ceilings, not who was a better player. I think Nagbe's ceiling is higher if he puts it all together, because of his athleticism. That's all.
I am not familiar with the narrative, only the game I watched. Don't mistake the argument 'Nagbe is very quick and fast and even other very quick and fast players have some issues with his speed and quickness' for 'Deandre Yedlin had a bad game' or 'Deandre Yedlin is a bad player.' * As to my recollection: Nagbe turned and skipped away from the very fast Yedlin early in the first half. A bit later, Nagbe drove down the Seattle right flank while Yedlin sagged off him a good five yards allowing him to release harrington who passed to Valeri for a fantastic goal. Yedlin aggressively rushed in late in the second half and hacked Nagbe down possibly due to the fact that Nagbe is very quick and fast. *[Nor should anyone mistake the argument that 'I believe Nagbe's ceiling is higher than Fagundez because he is a superior athlete' for the argument 'Nagbe is a better/more productive player than Fagundez.]
IE's standard response when he knows he's wrong... But back to Edu, regardless of how one rates him (and I know I think quite a bit less of him than others here do) I think most all can agree that generally speaking his strengths are tackling/athleticism/ability to cover a lot of ground and his weaknesses are first touch/comfort with the ball at his feet/passing.