Read (skipped through) the revised edition of "inverting the pyramid"... what a sad book has it become. Suddenly Vic Buckingham is upgraded to the great mastermind behind Ajax, Holland, Barcelona and Spain their football tradition... Very sad, patriotic and wrong - with quite vital information left out as well. And apparently he has received criticism by the machinery for his supposed lack of discussing the role of Germany (and Beckenbauer) in the evolution of football tactics so he has included that too now, eventually. Many of the additions and revisions do not fit very well in the narrative. Makes me wonder how much of his chapters about South American football are plain bullshit. What an overrated writer. Excerpts are on google books as well
well ,when the teamstill use 5 striker like 2-3-5 or 3-2-5, whats happen at set pieces? at defending corner,would 5 forward still stay in the front? at attack corner,would the 2 or 3 fullback would go forward?
In Reality, 2 3 5 or 3 2 5 never employed 5 "strikers" but 5 FORWARDS ... For example, Di Stefano, Puskas, Kocsis or Hedegkuti were all "FW" in the 5 positions of attack, but often they played linking with MF, especially Hidegkuti and Di Stefano were playing more like a CAM of the team (equivalent to today games) Not sure you distinguish between a true "striker" and FW? True strikers are type of player who can play with their BACK facing goals, and absorb the man marking, crowded place, quick, good finishing and 1st touch. FW are more mobile , often playing with their HEAD facing goals, eitehr from sides or center = they are good in passing link up MF, some dribblings ... For example, 1- Benzama Suarez Ibra Van Persie, Aguero ... could play either strikers or FW ... 2- But guys like Fred, Damao (Brazil) Falcao , M.Gomez, Manjukic are more of "strikers" type than FW ... 3- In other hands, Robben Neymar Di Maria Pedro ... are good FW's but can not be good strikers ...
Some comments about a Pyramid Full-back play, written by V.Lodge (English international in the 1890s) http://gottfriedfuchs.blogspot.com/2013/09/hints-on-game-full-back-play-by-l-v.html
A coaching manual in a 50 cigarette cards around 1934 (WM system) http://gottfriedfuchs.blogspot.com/2013/03/hints-on-association-football-1934.html
Not sure if some one posted this , but here are TOP20 BEST teams of last decade 2000-2010 - in term of formation and tactics DRIVING to their success (thanks to Zonalmarking) 1- Greece (Euro2004 winner) - 4 5 1 Being a mediocre squad team, but with a brilliant formation and tactics, they won the EURO out of anyone's best guess. Remember them as negative, defensive, cynical and unimaginative if you like, but it’s interesting that this only became the prevailing mood when Greece actually looked like winning the thing 2- Barcelona 2008-09 (Pep) - 4 3 3 Tactically, Barca generally stuck to a 4-3-3 shape throughout the season, playing high up the pitch and pressing from the front. Henry stayed wide on the left, with Messi having more license to come in off the right wing, knowing that the energetic Dani Alves would be providing width. In midfield, Iniesta played furthest forward, Xavi was the calm, methodical ‘link’, whilst Yaya Toure sat deep infront of the centre-backs. 3- Manchester United, 2006-09: Alex Ferguson has used a variety of formations – 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 4- Porto, 2002-04: this was a relatively basic team tactically. Generally setting out in a 4-3-1-2 system, there was nothing tactically innovative about this side. However, they were without question the most well-drilled club side on this list. 5- Roma, 2005-07: Luciano Spalletti is modern football’s Alexander Fleming, and the 4-6-0 was his great discovery that he never intended on inventing. The only solution was to play Francesco Totti upfront, but rather than remaining upfront alone and waiting for service, Totti effectively played his usual trequartista role, moving into the gap between opposition defence and midfield and receiving the ball to feet
Most intriguing is IMO Brazil around the 1950 World Cup. Probably you know more about those. As shown here, the 1970 'World Sports' poll had Zizinho strangely among the half-backs (like also Didi is occasionally seen as a half-back/midfielder rather than a forward). https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/placar-greatest-footballers-1981-1999.1987390/page-6 Zizinho was apparently the deeper playing figure. This graph on internet show him playing extremely deep: [Graph by media conglomerate 'globo'] The question is: does it make sense? Probably hard to tell without videos but if we put the late Didi (thus mid-50s onward) as reference point, was Zizinho just as close to a half-back; or wasn't he? I have my doubts but it could be if we consider how the defence could have been arranged under the diagonal system (mid-tournament they switched to a more 'orthodox' WM system as we know) [This is while facing an Pyramid or WM system as opponent] This creates a spare man at the back. In Dutch that was (also) called the 'halfregel', borrowed from the German word 'halbriegel'. To be exact, one player has no direct opponent any more, and covers a zone. If (repeat: if) it was organized in that way, that would explain the tempting need of an inside-forward to fall back into a midfield role (another question is whether Brazil their inside forwards could do that properly without getting exposed...). But I read conflictual accounts about it. For example: http://www.sportstaronnet.com/tss2519/25190400.htm This looks wrong to me on the account that Brazil did not play a diagonal in the final game (more or less switched to WM). But in any case, can you help me out perhaps?
First, Zizinho was playing deeper than other FW in such diagonal system. But of course Didi was more of a natural Midfielder (can attck and defense) then Zizinho (more attack) You are RIGHT that Brazil 50 played WM (modified) but It's not wrong to say as "diagonal", but in the old days, players are not strictly put within a formation like they are now ... (they have more freedom so it's hard to figure out just by watching ONE game) Below is a copy/paste in tactical revolution tactics of Brazil: ========================================================== BRASIL 1950 (WM & 4-2-4): BARBOSA; AUGUSTO e JUVENAL; BAUER, DANILO, BIGODE; FRIAÇA, ZIZINHO, ADEMIR, JAIR, CHICO. - Runners up World Cup 1950 - Brazil. Facts: Ademir Menezes (“the Big Chin”) was the top scorer of the WC 50 with 9 goals. Tactical tendencies: Coach Dori Krueschner came to Brasil during the 40’s decade to coach CR Flamengo and with him all the influences from the English Herbert Chapman and his WM system. The WM system was very successful at club level with Vasco da Gama (Rio de Janeiro) during that time. Vasco players were the base of the Brazil National Team in 1950, therefore the WM system and sometimes a variation to a 4-2-4. Brazil had a tremendous campaign but lost to Uruguay, an unexpected historical upset inside of the Maracana Stadium. In "theory" they played by WM (as above) but in "practical field" the 4 men ( Bauer,Danilo, Zizinho, and Jair ) did play in a diagonal shape - NOT SQUARE like tradition WM above. So IF in WM diagonal Bauer,Danilo, Zizinho, and Jair in midfield in that order IF in early 4 2 4 system: Bauer became CB/libero, Danilo and Zizinho as CM/AM and Jair became inside left FW
Brazil from 62 to 70 played 433 and 4 2 4 diagonal but to the right (Opposite to 4 2 4 left diagonal of the 50's) due to different quality of players. Brazil 62- 66: 4 3 3 right diagonal with Pele and Zagallo as key players in this formation! Pele was CAM (arrow) behind Vava and Garrincha on far right Zagallo was playing withdrawn deeper on the left (arrow) BRAZIL 1970: 4 2 4 (or 4 2 2 2 diagonal right) Rivelino as withdrawn deeper Left winger Tostao a "false striker" freely move to the left Pele playmaker in center move up down Jairzinho as a "scoring striker" on right wing (with big help from Carlos Alberto behind to patch his hole)
Nice draws, James, do you made it? I agree with James, the comparison between Zizinho and Didi, could be due to at some point Zizinho played a deeper role (from his original IF role) as in the Diagonal system. But he was a purely attacking player. Didi played even a bit deeper (in his late 20s) with some defensive duties, but always partnering with a pure defensive player as Zito, for example. So, in my opinion, lining-up Zizinho as half back, is a mistake, as many in "All-Time XI" lists, whom like to name the most attacking players as they could. And Puck, as you said, and other notes (cited in posts 132 to 137) brazilian coach change his Diagonal to a conventional WM (with a magical square) in the final stage. About the quoting, i guess, whether the autor refers to WM or Diagonal variant, that Danilo (nominal CH) marked one of the opposing WM inside forwards. And the (nominally) Left FullBack, Juvenal, in fact, acted as a stopper, meanwhile Augusto (nominal RFB) move to his right to played RB and Bigode (LHB to LB). I hope, do you understand, the brazilian change from Pyramid to WM, moving its defensive back-two to their right, leaving space for a withdrawing Left halfback, to form a defensive back three.
no I said it was a cut/paste from the so called "tactical Revolustion of Brazil football history book" (by Vincinous dos Santos)
OK since I posted (by that book) the Brazil 62-70 formation and revolustion in tactics, let's move on to the WC1982 ================================== note In this 4 2 2 2 formation Brazil 82 were back to Diagonal LEFT ... with heavy attacking from the left of Eder, Falcao and Junior . Much less on right with partial Socrates and Leandro This is a modifed from 50's WM left diagonal to a quasi-4 2 4 diagonal
Thanks. What was the job of Bauer? Btw, the scheme I see in my book is similar as the one I found here. http://www.bachlertal.de/tsv/links/sportinfo/tsv_sportinfo_system.htm Yes, I understand that when they switched to WM, Bigode (actually a wing-half/half-back like you said) now acted as one of the three defenders. It has been hypothesized a few times that this was their main mistake (together with the offensive impulses of Danilo).
I think you still mixed up with modern tactics ... and position. In older days formation is one thing and players playing to their style is more freely as another thing. Like many thought Puskas or Pele r Zizinho or Jair as "FW" but they were actually playing as AM now aday
I was checking and your draw (post #235) for Brazil 1950 is similar to the one, ManiacButcher posted here https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/best-south-american-players-50s-60s.1383569/page-3 So, in those draws the "brazilian WM" or Diagonal (check the diagonal line from defender to forward), looks in the defensive phase as Hungary 1954. I mean, one of the two halves playing a bit deeper, as a sort of stopper in front of the original back-three. Zakarias for Hungary, and Bauer in the case for Brazil. As far as i know, Bauer was an attacking Centrehalf at club level (just like Danilo). But, @ManiacButcher and @LucasGomes are experts in brazilian football history and can help with info about Bauer playing as a CB at some moment in his career. It looks that Brazil 1950 had advanced tactics for its era, at least, concerning South American teams, even switching tactics in the course of a game.
You're very spot on that. Indeed Brazil 50 was among the revolution of tactics - transform traditional WM into WM diagonal to pre 4 2 4 formation that would be successful in later decade. Bauer was the main CB/stopper for Brazil, and Danilo was a CM/DM (a la Cerezo/Cloloaldo) Note that in early football - post 2 3 5 to WM, Football was still very attacking minded game (more attackers then DF) do not confuse with the formation now with DM CB FB ....
Puck, reviewing the posts, i don't clarify your concern about Bauer's role. I'm sure you know how Diagonal system looks, you also mentioned it in previous pages. I'm guess the question is: - In the German link, Bauer is facing the opposing #9 (defensively similar to Swiss Bolt). - In Glanville article, said that Juvenal (Left Fullback) is facing opposing #9 In both articles the brazilian system is described the same, a WM variant with a back-three: Augusto-Juvenal-Bigode When using Diagonal, Bauer is placed upfront the back-three. I'm not sure whether he actually marked (part-time?) the CF, or just the autor saw the Swiss Bolt, there. But when using orthodox WM at last stage (esp. vs Uruguay), both halves played less defensive minded.
In normal WM (diagonal or not) Bauer was like a DM (other 3 were DF ) but when Brazil 50 played transitional to pre-4 2 4 system, then he played more like a CB/stopper
Msioux, I just wonder whether that defensive arrangement makes sense. That is: with one (defensive) player not facing a direct opponent (indeed, that part is akin to the Swiss Bolt). Indeed, this is question is induced by the conflictual accounts.
Move on to Brazil94 WC winning team using European style in MF : variant of 4 4 2 into 4 1 3 2 ( 1 DM + 3MF to lock down the midfield zone - Dunga and Mauro were keys in this successful approach)
Agon online has several vintage German-language books on sale which deal with football tactics among other things: http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/buch-chronik-bundesligaelfmeter-19631991-p-2052.html Fussball ohne Aufnehmen des Balles (Assoziation-Fussball) (1909) "Football without taking up the Ball (Association-Football)" Das ABC des Fussballspiels (1925) "The ABC of the Football Game" http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/buch...alle-mannschaften-spiele-tabellen-p-2039.html Wie wird Fußball gespielt? Die Technik des Fußballspiels in Bild und Wort. 42 Lehrtafeln mit ausführlichen Erläuterungen zur Erlernung und Vervollkommnung des Fußballspiels. (1923) "How to play Football? The technique of the Football Game in picture and word. 42 wall charts with elaborate explanations to learn and to bring to perfection the football game." http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/buch-bundesliga-besten-p-2037.html Das Fußballspiel (1900) "The Football Game" http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/buch-jahre-2bundesliga-p-2040.html Der Fußballsport (1925) "The Football Sport" http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/buch...69-pokalspiele-1969-laenderspiele-p-2043.html