The best players of the 1986 World Cup

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I did hear that Bilardo did NOT want Pasarella in his team, since his team were SOLELY built around ONE player, a superstar in Maradona!

    In other words, Bilardo wanted to END the "Pasarella reign" (captaincy) from older coach ... Menotti, and rebuild his NEW TEAM (more European style = organized in midfield, solid in defense, and ONLY Maradona had freedom in attack!.

    This is another controversy head line from Fillol about that "Pasarella fiasco" at WC86:

    Jueves 15 de noviembre del 2012 | 19:25
    Carlos Bilardo le dio laxante a Daniel Passarella para sacarlo del Mundial 1986
    Ubaldo Fillol no dudó en revelar lo que se pensaba. “‘Bila’ llevó a ‘Passa’ y le dio una laxante que al final lo sacó del equipo”, dijo.
    [​IMG]

    Argentina terminó siendo campeón mundial en México 86, sin Pasarella. (Internet)

    (GOOGLE translate)

    Ubaldo Fillol , former goalkeeper of the Argentina national team, revealed that former Albiceleste strategist Carlos Bilardo took a laxative to Daniel Passarella to remove Mexico World Cup 1986 tournament was eventually won by the Argentinians.

    "He (Bilardo) was always very aggressive with Passarella and me, because we were kidney (former coach Cesar) Menotti. In football could not objetarnos. However, do not accept the relationship with 'El Flaco' (Menotti). He made me play every game and then cleansed me, "said Fillol.

    According to former goalkeeper, "Daniel (Passarella), however, took him and gave him a laxative you took it out of the computer. And nearly killed him. " In consultation with Fillol whether literally or figuratively speaking, former River keeper replied, "It's literally all we know, but no one dares to say it. Where was Passarella Mexico during the World? Internship with infernal diarrhea. They gave him something to drink, "he said.

    According to a popular story circulating in the football environment, but denies Bilardo during the second round match of Italia 90 World Cup between Argentina and Brazil, the former coach had prepared a container in which water mixed with sleeping pills and was the offered the Brazilian Branco as he approached the rival bank to hydrate.


    =============================================================

    Maybe Vegan or Once had something to say about this???
     
  2. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    One thing is what happened to Passarella and another thing is what was known at the time. We are discussing the latter, not the former.
    I think it is pretty clear that the general impression was that he was going to play.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    That's the KEY! I think both of you are correct in your point.
    I agree that to many people's surprise (at time in Argentina) Passarella was "dropped" with excuse as "not fit" or Injury! So just lately Fillol made a very controversial claim (as above) of what "happened" with Passarella!
    Still remained as unclear ...
     
  4. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    A laxative can take a player out for an entire month? :rolleyes:
     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Who stops him to give it before every practice game LOL ... j/k
    That could well be an exaggeration on Fillol's part .. but clearly Bilardo did not like Passarella as captain of his team, at least not in his idea
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Once said some posts ago that Passeralla not playing the first game was a surprise (post #92 for example) but it wasn't in my estimation. The illness he had can take a long to leave the body, let alone coming back to full strengths after not training for four consecutive days at all and losing 3 kilograms (Passarella was a 70kg bloke). It was only a five days before the first match that he was declared 'recovered'.

    Apparently the Argentinian camp wanted to give the impression of a full recovery (while in reality he had still the same illness), but only the bookmakers know whether they were swayed by this. Maybe they only would do so when they saw visible proof of the recovery (actually, some trainings were done in public, with journalists around the field).
     
  7. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    In post 92 I said I found surprising that by 31/5 it would have been known Passarella was not to play, as you claimed. It was in post 97 that I said "I bet more than one was surprised not to see him in the lineup". Vegan had made a similar remark previously. And it is completely reasonable if contrasted with what Mundo Deportivo had to say about it at the time.
    At the time the team doctor said Passarella had lost 3 kg of weight, he said he would make him subject of a special treatment to help him regain it, that was a week before the debut (published 27/5). Passarella's affliction at the time caused him to practically dehidrate. So his weigh loss was related to that. Dont fighters lose crazy amounts of "water weight" to make weight before fights, and a day or two later they not only have regained it, but they step up to a ring and do what they do? If two days later (published 29/5) it is said that Passarella is recovered and training again, he had likely been under the said regime and gained some weight back. And there were still a number of days ahead to continue treatment before the debut. That is the last thing Mundo Deportivo had to say about it. Since they had been following the situation and said nothing more about it until after the first game, it was likely because there was nothing more to say about it. Again, it is easy to look at it retrospectively when everybody knows how it went. Another thing is what was said about it at the time. And THAT is what we were discussing. No matter how much we go back and forth with it, it looks like it was not known by 31/5 that Passarella was not going to play, as you said, and it did catch more than a few by surprise that Passarella did not play the first game.
    There is no way we know what these bookmakers had in their heads when they announced their four favorites (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico), although a pattern does become evident. Only one team in their top4 made it past QFs, btw.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #108 PuckVanHeel, Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
    The thing is that this loss of 3kgs was still the situation when he was transferred to the hospital. It was also the situation after the first game, when his absence was clarified by the staff.
    Considering that a couple of training sessions took place in public, open for journalists, was the recovery visible? I don't know.

    Yes, I agree that the Argentinian staff wanted to communicate a successful recovery programme, from 29/5 until the first game (in Italian archives - La Repubblica - you can find that at 28/5 his illness was seen as something serious, but at 29/5 and 30/5 they reported a recovery including a successful test game against a Mexican club behind closed doors).

    You can think I was wrong but I still think it was throughout the tournament far from certain that he would play.
     
  9. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    The thing is what was known about the situation by 31/5, not that which was discovered later or what we know now.
    When did such clarification (in the bolded part) take place? Because the first thing Mundo Deportivo says about it after the first game is from June 4:
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1986/06/04/pagina-57/1138123/pdf.html#
    "Passarella will play against Italy"
    "This would be the only change in the lineup from the debut game, with Passarella in for Brown"
    "Team doctor Raúl Madero said Passarella was not included in the first game because he was not at the 100% of his capabilities".
    "The veteran footballer was affected by a enterocolitis last week and then suffered a gastric reaction to the medications he was given".

    BTW, this page also shows Brazilian legend Sócrates claiming that both Brazil and Mexico's games are fixed (his accusation sparked by a goal that in his view was incorrectly disallowed to Spain in the match Brazil beat them 1-0) for political and commercail reasons. He basically claims that the WC is a business and if Mexico and Brazil didnt move on to the next round, such business would suffer greatly. Interesting.

    Do you know of any reports on Passarella either not participating of them or doing it and looking bad? At least Mundo Deportivo does not publish anything like that and, as I said, having been following the situation like they had, I would imagine they would have said something like this if there was anything to say about it. On June 5, a day before the second game, Mundo Deportivo places Passarella among the starters to face Italy:
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1986/06/05/pagina-18/1138139/pdf.html#

    And such indications of recovery from the Argentinian staff continued after the first game for what MD informs.

    That he would not play was not a certainty either for a good part of it.
     
  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Summarized FF ratings for comparison

    Goalkeepers
    Jean-Marie Pfaff *** (3,5,5,5,4,4) 4.3
    Harald Schumacher *** (4,4,4,4,6,5,2) 4.1
    Zaki * (4,3,5,4) 4
    Peter Shilton * (4,4,5,4,3) 4
    Rinat Dasaev * (4,4,3) 3.7

    Did not miss anyone else with decent ratings.

    Full-backs
    Manuel Amoros *** (5,5,4,5,6,5,4) 4.9
    Josimar * (4,4,4) 4
    Julio Alberto * (4,4,3) 3.7
    Raul Servin * (3,4,3,3,5) 3.6

    Both the German fullbacks had strong ratings

    Andreas Brehme (3,4,4,5,5) 4.2
    Thomas Berthold (5,4,4,4,3) 4

    Centre-backs
    Oscar Ruggeri *** (3,4,3,4,3,3,3) 3.3
    Morten Olsen *** (4,4,6,5) 4.8
    Karlheinz Forster ** (2,3,5,5,5,5,4) 4.1
    Oleg Kuznetsov * (4,4,4,2) 3.5
    Jorge Luis Brown * (4,4,4,3,3,4,5) 3.9
    Julio Cesar * (4,4,3,4,5) 4
    Fernando Quirarte * (4,4,4,3,4) 3.8
    Edinho * (3,4,3,4,3) 3.4

    Big misses according to FF are the two french CBs, Bossis especially. Surprising how poorly Ruggeri was rated. Brown was rated as better pretty clearly, which is an opinion i have heard some around here have.

    Maxime Bossis (3,5,5,6,5,5) 4.8
    Patrick Battiston (3,3,3,6,5,5,4) 4.1

    Central midfielders
    Lothar Matthaus ** (3,4,4,4,5,4,4) 4
    Soren Lerby * (5,4,5,3) 4.3
    Luis Fernandez * (3,4,3,5,4,3) 3.7
    Jean Tigana * (3,4,4,4,5,5,4) 4.1
    Ivan Yaremchuk * (4,4,4) 4
    Alemao * (4,3,4,4,4) 3.8
    Pavlo Yakovenko * (4,4,4) 4

    Tigana is slightly underrated according to FF. No big misses.

    Attacking midfielders
    Diego Maradona *** (5,4,4,5,5,6,4) 4.7
    Jorge Burrachaga ** (4,4,4,4,4,5,5) 4.3
    Frank Arnesen * (4,5,5) 4.7
    Michel Platini * (3,4,3,4,3,2) 3.2
    Enzo Scifo * (3,4,2,3,2,3,2) 2.7
    Jan Ceulemans * (4,4,4,5,4,4) 4.2

    FF clearly thinks Ceulemans was the best Belgium attacker. They have Scifo rated as downright poor. Platani is not far ahead of him. Platini scored some very important goals but that does not come through in the ratings. Hoddle is the only borderline guy left out.

    Glen Hoddle (4,3,5,5,3) 4 seems worthy of * for me.


    Wingers
    Jesper Olsen * (3,4,3) 3.3

    Michel Seems like a slightly better choice.

    Michel (4,4,3,5,3) 3.8

    Forwards
    Preben Elkjaer-Larsen *** (6,5,3,4) 4.5
    Igor Belanov *** (4,3,5) 4
    Emilio Butragueno ** (4,3,3,6,3) 3.8
    Jorge Valdano ** (4,4,4,2,3,3,4) 3.4
    Michael Laudrup * (4,6,3,3) 4

    Was surprised by how low Valdano was rated. Also also little surprised Belanov did not get a 6 versus Belgium. No major misses.

    Strikers
    Gary Lineker *** (2,3,6,5,4) 4
    Careca *** (4,4,4,4,4) 4
    Alessandro Altobelli * (5,4,5,3) 4.3
    Rudi Voller * (3,4,3,2,4) 3.2

    Allofs played more games and was better rated than Voller. Yannick Stopyra was Frances top rated attacker, rating definately makes him look overlooked.

    Klaus Allofs (3,4,4,3,4,4,3) 3.6
    Yannick Stopyra (5,4,4,5,4) 4.4

    Highest rated players at least four games.

    Manuel Amoros *** (5,5,4,5,6,5,4) 4.9
    Morten Olsen *** (4,4,6,5) 4.8
    Maxime Bossis (3,5,5,6,5,5) 4.8
    Diego Maradona *** (5,4,4,5,5,6,4) 4.7
    Preben Elkjaer-Larsen *** (6,5,3,4) 4.5
     
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  11. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Yes, I thought comme should have included them when he did his list. FF rankings also reflect their very good OPTA stats.
     
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  12. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Where do you find Opta stats? I try to find in Opta website but only 2010 WC.
     
  13. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    More about expected than actual form in the tournament but I thought it might be interesting to add comments from the form guide section of a book I have (and had at the time I guess) called The World Cup: An Essential Guide to Mexico '86, by Virgin Books, so I'll note the mentioned players and any interesting comments (the squads were not decided yet as in another section of the book Brian Clough talks about who he would pick for England etc).

    Algeria - Belloumi (regarded in Algeria as across between Platini, Maradona and God)

    Argentina - Maradona (fitness in doubt after some cracking qualifying performances), Passarella (marvellous, once described by a South American journalist as the dirtiest great player in the world)

    Belgium - Vercauteren (intelligent, creative), Scifo (great things being spoken eg 'new Cruyff')

    Brazil - Zico, Socrates, Eder, Falcao, Casagrande, Junior, Edinho, Cerezo

    Bulgaria - none (but win over France in qualifying mentioned)

    Canada - Valentine, Mitchell

    Denmark - Molby (twinkle-toed giant), J.Olsen (fiery midget), M.Olsen, Laudrup, Lerby, Elkjaer

    England - Robson (need at his fittest and paciest), Hoddle (need at his classiest and most involved), Lineker (maybe, or Hateley)

    France - Carre Magique 4, Bossis/Battiston (who plays sweeper?), Rocheteau/Toure (if they prove made for each other, France could challenge Italy as Europe's best bet)

    Hungary - Nyilasi

    Iraq - Ali Hussein

    Italy - Rossi, Tancredi

    Mexico - Hugo Sanchez

    Morocco - Zaki (regarded as Africa's finest)

    N.Ireland - M.O'Neill, Jennings, Whiteside

    Paraguay - Cabanas

    Poland - Boniek, Zmuda

    Portugal - Fernando Gomes (phenomenal)

    Scotland - Leighton, Souness, McAvennie

    South Korea - none (disciplined and fit but very defensive was the assessment of the team)

    Soviet Union - Dasaev (terrific)

    Spain - Hipolito Rincon

    Uruguay - Venacio Ramos (could set everyone talking)

    W.Germany - Rummenigge, Herget, Thon
     
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  15. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I don't know if that was posted already, it's El Grafico's ratings for their team

    [​IMG]

    Needless to say Maradona looks pretty good on that one...
     
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  16. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I'm very late to this thread, but I wanted to contribute some more things. Joining the ratings of Marca, Mundo Deportivo and France Football and adding some more variables depending on the results of the matches and the final classification, I have made a ranking by players. The final results have surprised me in some cases, due to some surprising absences and presences among the first classified. For example, I have been able to verify that some players present in some XI ideals of the tournament (such as Schumacher or Lineker do not occupy such a high place in this ranking). In the same way, Andoni Goicoechea, Bossis or Careca occupy very prominent positions, when they were not the main protagonists in several of these teams.
    I publish the summary qualifications of this work and an XI proposal of the tournament.
    If someone can contribute the ratings of other newspapers, I can add them to the ones I have.

    Maradona 9,10
    Goicoechea 8,21
    Amorós 8,02
    Brown 7,89
    Bossis 7,72
    Burruchaga 7,68
    Olsen, Morten 7,63
    Careca 7,59
    Elkjaer Larsen 7,53
    Butragueño 7,53
    Josimar 7,46
    Ruggeri 7,46
    Stopyra 7,41
    Camacho 7,39
    Fernández 7,36
    Víctor 7,33
    Laudrup 7,32
    Yaremchuk 7,31
    Tigana 7,31
    Battiston 7,31
    Lerby 7,31
    Cucciuffo 7,28
    Briegel 7,27
    Valdano 7,25
    Pfaff 7,19
    Pumpido 7,17
    Míchel 7,14
    Julio César 7,11
    Negrete 7,10
    Hoddle 7,09
    Ceulemans 7,09
    Kuznetsov 7,03
    Rats 7,03
    Brehme 7,02
    Berthold 7,00
    Forster 6,98
    Altobelli Italia 6,97
    Elzo 6,96
    Belanov 6,96
    Lineker 6,94
    Butcher 6,94
    Shilton 6,91
    Batista 6,87
    Aleinikov 6,85
    Sansom 6,85
    Alemao 6,85
    Carlos 6,83
    Matthaus 6,82
    Quirarte 6,81
    Giresse 6,79
    Bats 6,78
    Bessonov 6,78
    Zaki 6,77
    Vercauteren 6,69

    Hypothetical ideal team with this data:

    Pfaff; Josimar, Goicoechea, Brown, Amorós; Luis Fernández, Maradona, Burruchaga; Butragueño, Elkjaer Larsen, Careca
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    What variables are these? Indeed, Schumacher, Lineker and Matthaus (though I know he wasn't at his best yet) look rather low to me.

    Also, Maradona was really a forward for most of this tournament, see also FIFA's own technical report and analysis on this tournament (page 87-89):

    https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/mexico-1986-part-500906.pdf?cloudid=vkami8gmuo9mpkbuzfhs

    Can't find it right now but OPTA's own average positions also showed he was either the 2nd most advanced or most advanced player of his team on average.

    The ingrained propaganda he and other south american stars were midfielders while Holland/Belgium's foremost creative talent are 'just' forwards or strikers has to stop!

    edit: this is for the first half against Italy. Generally a game where he still played not as advanced as later in the tournament.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    From the top of my head, but perhaps I'm wrong, he played more upfront against Italy and a bit more withdrawn in the Final against West Germany. Globally, as for these two games.
    This is what is suggested by how the goals came but not only if I remember correctly (we watched these games once), and there's a causal link I think, although it remained to be done that these goals would be scored.

    Then, for Maradona as for the other players you mention or think about, what the map doesn't tell is : from this preferential zone of the field, do they preferentially make a pause in order to pass the ball to somebody or do they continue their effort ball at the feet quite often, wich depends on each game, or even half-time maybe (ok, as you precised for the game against italy, but For the rest of the tournament it remains to be verified game by game, halves by halves. In any case he dribbled/ provoked the defenses a lot in this tournament).

    I think he could be considered as "second forward", that is behind Valdano who was more of the "pivot type + able to displace himself a bit" or "third forward" if we add Burruchaga who could play in quite an advanced position as well. And also simply attacking midfielder/ "number 10" but it's true that he was more of an attacker/ forward during this tournament globally, in my view too. Since he assaulted much the defenders directly, this at the outskirts of the penalty-box. Other players like Enrique (a surprise) or Giusti (not as good as expected maybe) could do the transition without forgetting Burruchaga with whom he alternated as to know who's more the #10 and who's more the second forward imo.

    In '90, it's slightly different in my view : as for their preferential role/ zone, Burruchaga is more the AM in a stacked and less technical midfield where he's supposed to add his playmaking skills and Maradona more clearly the 5th midfielder who's more between midfield and attack, behind a CF. He's less spectacular there, during this edition, but he's more clearly the second forward in terms of tactics in this occasion. Of course he was in a lesser form (so the idea to have him more upfront here perhaps? In order to make the difference in one "coup"?) and this was anti-football tournament. '86 was already very defensive compared to '82 and '90 was the end product of a sort of evolution. You could not let one player make his team win again. It's the end of the "numbers 10" that often starred in their teams in the 80s. Zidane and Riquelme are the resurgence of it a bit later (are the "UFO's of recent football"). Maradona was still a "10" acting at midfield in '86 in a good proportion. In any case, there's never been two exactly similar "#10's" of course.

    Not to avoid the question, but Cruijff and Maradona are a bit "the unclassifiable ones" anyway. Like other great players always are a bit too.

    At the time of the 5-5 it would have been less complicated, they would all have been called forwards anyway, as starting either from an inside forward role, CF role or why not even winger occasionally.
     
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  19. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #119 wm442433, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
    I have this book...
    ... Mundial 86 - Le Livre Souvenir de la Coupe du Monde 1986 (1986)
    A collective work by Michel Bai, Charles Bietry, Gilles Boiron, Renaud Bombard, Bernard Godec, Renaud de Laborderie and Wolfgang Venker.
    (front picture : Socrates & Tigana)

    I'll try to select some comments they made from time to time.

    The first part is about the French team run in the qualifiying phase.
    In conclusion : "For the first time in its history, the French team is much expected" [at a World Cup].

    Then, it's about the group stage draw : it is said that contrarily to what may have happened in the past, the process was this time clearly executed under clear rules wich had for effect to avoid maneuverings (it is implied, at this stage of the process at least).
    A young child did the draw (pictured... he's less than 6 years old apparently).

    In the following, it's about the TV rights (where things are less clear), the increasing of satellites, journalists etc. and about the communication and ceremonies around the event. A "fig leaf" they say.

    Let's start with the first round though. And what is said specifically about the players.

    "There was a few individual revelations during this first round except for the talent of Zaki (Mor), and Fernandez (Par), two goalkeepers, but on the other hand a lot of confirmations : in defense, Bossis and Amoros for France, Goicoechea for Spain (who managed to lie low during the first round), Morten Olsen (Den), Julio César (Bra), Förster (FRG). At midfield, Maradona (Arg), Socrates (Bra), Bertelsen, Arnesen and Lerby (Den), Yaremchuk, Rats, Zavarov (USSR), Hoddle, Hodge and Steven (Eng), Matthaüs, Magath (FRG) and Bouderbala (Mor) to only cite the main ones and waiting for the waking up of Platini, Giresse, Tigana and Fernandez and the come-back of Zico.
    Last, in attack with Altobelli (Ita), Elkjaer-Larsen and Laudrup (Den), Lineker (Eng), Careca (Bra) and the French Papin, Stopyra and Rocheteau, the nets were found. For our delight".

    [we can see a wink at the French strikers, not the main asset of the team since years who managed to score when Platini did not. There's a special wink to Papin who managed to score against Canada after wasting many chances and who was eventually replaced by Stopyra for the rest of the tournament. We can hear also : they were not too many being three to do the task. Papin was novice though. Also Rocheteau barely played in '84 and it was the first tourney of Stopyra].

    Next the games one by one. With a selection of what they say as to sum it up.
    Well, I'll see what I can find.
     
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  20. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I have not included players who did not get to play at least 3 games and 270 minutes. That is why Arnesen and Yakovenko are not listed here. It should also be noted that El Mundo Deportivo stopped qualifying in 4 or 5 championship games; They put the lineups, but not the rating of each player.
    The Marca rated from 0 to 3 (rarely reached 4).
    The Mundo Deportivo qualified from 1 to 6.
    France Football qualified from 2 to 6.
    To balance results I made the following equivalences:
    For Marca ratings: 0 = 3; 1 = 6; 2 = 7.5; 3 = 9; 4 = 10
    For El Mundo Deportivo ratings: 1 = 2; 2 = 4; 3 = 6; 4 = 7; 5 = 8.5; 6 = 10
    For France Football ratings: 2 = 4; 3 = 6; 4 = 7; 5 = 8.5; 6 = 10
    On the other hand, for each media, I calculated 3 data to average between them; The first data takes into account only the rating given; in the second data, two correction factors (* 1.1 for each match won; 0.9 for the loss; * 1.01 for the victory of one goal; * 1.02 for the victory of two goals; * 0,99 for the defeat by a goal, etc, etc); in the third data, the final qualification of the tournament is added to the above (10% bonus for the winners; 7.5% for the finalists; 5% for the semifinalists; 2.5% for the four-finalists; 1.25% for the octavofinalists).
    All those are the variables ...
    Regarding Maradona, for those of us who have enjoyed playing it, it is very difficult to place it in a specific place. It was certainly not a typical striker, because he liked to look for the ball in more backward areas. We could place him as an offensive midfielder or as a "mediapunta" (I don't know how to say in English).
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #121 PuckVanHeel, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019

    Well I think if anything it was the opposite for long phases of the final.

    Page 189 here:
    https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/mexico-1986-part-500900.pdf?cloudid=pfnhnhmqhdwqvp62pm27

    The analysis here:
    https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/04/06/retroanalyse-argentinien-deutschland-wm86-in-depth/

    See also this stuff from La Nacion for the Uruguay game.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.lanacion.com.ar/deporte...elantado-para-seguir-a-francescoli-nid1904542


    Many history books ('Inverting the Pyramid') and Bilardo himself mentioned he was moved further up front after the group stage.

    Per the OPTA data Maradona was the 5th or 6th most frequent passer of his team. That is 'lower' in the pecking order than Platini, Cruijff and Zidane yes (Cruijff was the 2nd most frequent passer of his team, just behind Haan). From this particular aspect it is not too different from Messi in 2014.

    Typically this passing is one of the main distinctions between a midfielder - providing the platform for others - and a forward or striker. Say, Albertini provides the platform and Baggio delivers the punch.


    More advanced types of stat crunching invariably give the same picture:

    "To do this, we’ll start with Ball Movement Points. The concept of Ball Movement Points captures players’ contributions in terms of their ball distribution and possession regains with objective values based on past results for the relevant pitch locations from six years of data. As a calculation basis, a match is split into ball moves made by a player from a start zone to an end zone. Each ball move is then assessed regarding the danger it poses to the opposition. It goes beyond expected assists by looking at the full chain of passes, weighing the probability of that pass leading to a shot later in the play. It’s broken down into categories of offensive and defensive as well as positive and negative (oBMP+, oBMP-, dBMP+, dBMP-) with net values telling the more conclusive story.

    Offensive BMP is something of a creativity index, and because we’re ultimately assessing Messi and Maradona, it’s what we’ll focus on here. Positive oBMP is our way of differentiating simple successful passes lacking ambition from those that move the ball to more dangerous locations of the pitch. Negative oBMP relates to the value of possessions lost or wasted by players. These scores accumulate during a match or across a competition. Large net values imply that the player makes more successful passes in areas closer to the opposition’s goal and/or that the passing opportunities that are realised outweigh those that are wasted.
    [....]
    But as for oBMP across the five-match sample, Maradona’s net value was lower than teammate Jorge Burruchaga, despite the midfielder playing fewer minutes. Maradona’s per-90 rate was also lower than Enrique, who partnered with Burruchaga in Argentina’s midfield for the majority of the minutes in the five matches we’re discussing.

    It’s extremely common for midfielders to compile higher oBMPs than even the best forwards because net oBMP in particular can be a playmaking midfielder’s dream metric. Forwards tend to give the ball away more in more advanced positions and see unfavourable oBMP- totals.
    [...]
    But in the final, the highlights and the data will tell you his teammates filled that role. His offensive contribution was the fifth highest among Argentina players in the match behind Valdano, Julio Olarticoechea, Enrique and Burruchaga."



    What all of this above means is the actual moving of the ball to the danger zones was done as much (if not more) by his team-mates. Those made the passes from which the forward orientated players could do the damage. Then the skill, altitude and heat did the rest.

    From a physical perspective it is clear Maradona was more like a sprinter while Zidane was more like marathon man. Zidane was not slow when he came into his stride, but not super fast coming off the blocks. Platini was more of a marathon guy too - not the most athletic player but I've read how good he was in endurance tests.

    So yes, it is all very arbitrary, the more so if you start to think about the tactical role of the player out of team possession, and in team possession. That's not to say Platini and Cruijff didn't have matches where they 'switched off' - let the game flow through others - but overall Maradona's activity pattern, physical attributes, the free role status and average position is very similar to a forward. He wasn't your typical playmaking number 10 in the sense of making a lot of passes and distributing the ball (relative to his team-mates). That's why I said this ingrained propaganda has to stop (but it won't).

    (this activity pattern also explains why the Uruguay graph shows him positioned as a 'striker'....)


    Not sure about this. Zidane was not your typical number 10 either - that is what made him effective in the end. At Real Madrid he came from the flanks (just like Isco often) and before that Lippi struggled to accommodate him and find the right position to let him shine. Zidane or the coaches made amends to the stereotypical number 10 role.

    Riquelme yes was your classic number 10 with all the strengths and flaws that made it hard to place him into a big team. Riquelme had from time to time the attributes of a forward too but yes he generally played behind two other strikers and stayed in his own zone.

    You had also other number 10s at the time like Rui Costa (played generally behind two or three team-mates), Totti, McAllistar, Veron but few of those could really maintain themselves as recognizable number 10 at a top team without making alterations. Some also drop down a line like Modric, or Pirlo and the rest mentioned here.

    It's often claimed/stated all four euro 2000 semi finalists had a number 10 in their ranks. Of course with nuances and differences, but all recognizable as a facilitating silky player playing from a central position, just behind the players meant to make the shots/goals.
     
    wm442433 repped this.
  22. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    OK, but Valdano served as a (mobile) pivot so Maradona ends up towards the goals ball at the feet, but coming from quite deep. Very often : not saying that Maradona did not act as a "marauding forward". I'm not saying that Valdano never reinforced the midfield too.

    Probably, certainly that Maradona was not amongst the first passers of his team in terms of numbers but in the book I was referring too for example, the authors praise the exceptional quality of his passes and through balls to his teammates. Certainly it has to do more with the last tier of the field though, that's right (since it's about through balls).
    That's what I already said : Enrique was important at midfield, allowing Maradona to roam more near the penalty box area.

    "Moved further upfront", the nuance is here in "further". I agree since the start that I'd lean more towards calling him a forward than a midfielder (during his prime) but it remains that he was a bit everywhere, globally.
    Putting players like him into boxes... repeating myself, same with Cruijff, it's difficult anyway in the end. Cruijff, categorized as a forward because of the legendary 4-3-3. But people know that he was everywhere.

    The diagrams of Fifa are interesting, also the ones from the other website but it's more about the direct duels between players than really about the zones they occupied the most during the actual match in my view, wich is less complicated than what the drawings show in fact, in my view still.
    Of course the idea of Bilardo was to play like a 5-3-2 (or it is 5-3-1-1? :D) but if you look well at what truely happened it was just a 4-4-2 that could be easily reinforced, turning in a 5-3-2.
    Never Giusti was a RWB (he was just a RCM and even, it could turn with Enrique) and never Cuciuffo was a CB, he was just a RB. Not the most attacking FB though, even very rarely as it was Olarticoechea who particularly was the (very) offensive full-back. It was more a 3-5-2 then, by the way, than a 5-3-2, finally.
    And for me, that's all about it. The positionning of Olarticoechea (wich will have an incidence on others in a more or less important measure, as they'll have to "slide" more or less, depending on the adversaries too).

    Clearly, for me, these sites about "tactics explained" are much about wankery. Even though Bilardo's team was perhaps presented by himself and analyzed by everybody as a 5-3-2 or a 3-5-2, for me it is just one move, one transformation that can happen during the match from a basic 4-4-2. The base globally remains the 4-4-2 so I'd always show what is the base as a presentation of the team, not one of his multiple possible transformations during some specific phases of a match.
    But that's another debate.

    Was Holland only and "purely" a 4-3-3? You know what I mean. That's the base though and then it could transform in many things. Again, logically, I prefer to stick to the base then why not explain what can be the possible variants.

    And the formations/ systems/ what kind of teammates participate to the perception we can have of a player. Is this good or bad? It works like that too.

    Yes, Bergkamp was flanked with one or two wingers generally. Same for Rui Costa. Zidane also in some way with Dugarry (kind of LW) and Djorkaeff behind Henry as the CF. Totti was just behind Delvecchio a bit like Maradona was behind Valdano imo, globally.
    Maradona did everything, including scoring. Winger, finisher, playmaker still.
    That's different team's buildings, different type of players used alongside the #10 who are all different individually, but in the end they're all what we call a #10, because they are the most important player in the offensive animation.

    Then, given his abilities and form, hopefully he played like a true forward in order to cause fatigue to the defenses and eventually make the difference. It would have been no good to refrain.

    I agree that Maradona was perhaps a bit more of a forward due to his qualities and his willing to catch up with defenders. He had no fear and well he was a dribbler. But it's not like he never build any plays during this Mundial 86.
    I'd lean towards the "forwards box", if we really need to choose but it's up to everybody to choose.

    In brief, it seems we agree on many points but there's no such things as a propaganda that says that Maradona was a midifielder not a striker, it's just that the #10 is more associated with midfield than the line of attack and if Marado was often in the last tier of the pitch in '86, it is fair to say that like all the other great 10's, he just navigated between midfield and attack, globally. Arriving towards the goals coming from quite deep, quite often. If Totti had been more decisive in attack in 2000 in terms of assists, goals and rushes, his name would be Maradona. Still, was Totti 2000 a forward or an attacking midfielder? Not that easy too. I'd probably say forward more. Not 100% sure about that though.

    I don't think that Zidane was that happy to play on the left flank at Real nor that he amended anything. Perhaps in an "official speach" though, it's still possible.

    But back to the main subject here, one last time, I understand your points.
     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    See also the 'Footballing History of Argentina' book:

    When the first half of the season was over, Brindisi had more goals than Maradona,' Marzolini [the manager] recalled. 'So Diego said to me, "Silvio, it's either him as forward or me as forward, but one has to go forward and one has to play behind." And I told him, "No, Diego, don't worry, we are playing well and they don't know who to mark because there are no fixed positions."

    Menotti has also said many times something similar:
    "I played with Maradona as a 9, as false center forward and free forward [at Barcelona]"
    https://as.com/futbol/2014/01/10/primera/1389359391_638487.html


    The most important word being here 'libro' or free, mentioned by Menotti at a few places and pieces. Free from tasks in team possession or out of it. Free to make many (open play) goals and assists (or not so many) which made him the defining player of the 1980s.

    Btw, the same book also makes the same 'asterisk' that I made on the grades (also given the known threatening of journalists). "[G]iven how many Giuliano events Maradona would subsequently attend, it would be wrong to portray him as an innocent exploited. He must have known with whom he was associating and that he benefited from it - his connection with the Giulianos [and Camorra] meaning no journalist was ever seriously going to criticize him, either for on- or off-field activities."
     
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  24. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yes + as Titanlux said :
    More and more with time I'd tend to say (so, that's over the 80's, in gross) although not that simple, it depends on the moments.
     
  25. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #125 wm442433, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    Quite well-known (at the time and during some time in France at least but maybe not acknowledged internationally... dunno), if Manuel Amoros was the revelation for/ from France in '82 (voted best young player of the tournament), another full back (who played on both sides of the pitch too) was it his turn in '86 in William Ayache. Of course, he was not voted best young player of the 1986 World Cup (It's Scifo) but the 25 years old Nantes defender was truely the good surprise this time, performing very well in Mexico. He took the spot of Tusseau (Bordeaux, former Nantes) after France first match vs Canada.
    in terms of numbers, he has one assist against Hungary (on the 1st goal) and perhaps he appears in one or several statiscal categories posted by Gregoriak (World Cup stats by Opta or it is Fifa, can't remember).
    His performance was saluted as he contributed both defensively and offensively with good balance and like a player with experience for his age.
    Ayache then was signed by PSG like other players were "stolen" from Nantes at the same time, in '86 and like others "Canaris", he quite did struggle outside of his formative club. The 1986 World Cup was thus the top and also a bit the beginning of the end of his career at only 25 years.
    He played more centre-back at the end of his career at AS Cannes with Fernandez and Zidane... Micoud, Vieira... he's one the few who played with both Platini and Zidane.
     

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