I left out Di Stefano to please you because I acknowledge that Ballon d'Or was in infancy in first few years. But no problem to mention him too. Then we have Di Stefano, Best, Rivera, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Van Basten and..... according to you also Rush if it was not a tournament year? [Yes, one should look at the performances and not the status of the name; same with Lineker at Barca ] But I'll do it in a better way and note what the players won as international award (with WC or euro ahead of club prizes). 1956: Matthews 1957: Di Stefano YES 1958: Kopa YES 1959: Di Stefano YES 1960: Suarez [Fairs Cup] 1961: Sivori 1962: Masopust 1963: Yashin 1964: Law 1965: Eusebio 1966: Charlton [World Cup] 1967: Albert 1968: Best YES 1969: Rivera YES 1970: Muller 1971: Cruyff YES 1972: Beckenbauer [european championship] 1973: Cruyff YES 1974: Cruyff 1975: Blokhin [Cup Winners Cup] 1976: Beckenbauer YES 1977: Simonsen 1978: Keegan 1979: Keegan 1980: Rummenigge [european championship] 1981: Rummenigge 1982: Rossi [World Cup] 1983: Platini 1984: Platini [european championship] 1985: Platini YES 1986: Belanov [Cup Winners Cup] 1987: Gullit 1988: Van Basten [european championship] 1989: Van Basten YES 1990: Matthaus [World Cup] 1991: Papin 1992: Van Basten 1993: Baggio [UEFA Cup] 1994: Stoichkov 1995: Weah 1996: Sammer [european championship] 1997: Ronaldo [Cup Winners Cup] 1998: Zidane [World Cup] 1999: Rivaldo 2000: Figo 2001: Owen [UEFA Cup] 2002: Ronaldo [World Cup] 2003: Nedved 2004: Shevchenko 2005: Ronaldinho 2006: Cannavaro [World Cup] 2007: Kaka YES 2008: Ronaldo YES 2009: Messi YES 2010: Sneijder YES (journalist vote) 2011: Messi YES (journalist vote) 2012: Messi (journalist vote) Factoring out the tournament years this is the result (between parentheses with including tournament years) European Cup: 10 (15) Cup Winners Cup: 2 (3) [Platini 1984 win not counted] Fairs/UEFA Cup: 2 (3) World Cup: 6 (since 1958) European championship: 5 (since 1972) There have been 29 Ballon d'Or editions so far without euro/WC involved. 10 times the EC winner won (three of them in last decade), two times the UEFA Cup winner and two times CWC winner. 15 times someone was voted as European player of the year without international club achievements - in years without major tournament. Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Matthews, Sivori, Yashin, Eusebio, Albert, Simonsen, Keegan, Rummenigge, Platini, Gullit, Papin, Weah, Rivaldo, Nedved, Ronaldinho See plenty of names who were seen as the best performer of year without international (club) prize or winning European Cup (though winning or appearing in final is a big bonus). Will also respond about other part.
I want to say that Serie A had no equivalent of a League Cup. Both Juventus and Liverpool did not win their primary domestic cup and I think it was for both not a main priority, as also visible in line-ups used. The prizes won with their clubs are more or less similar (league + international cup) except that EC is more important as CWC. I think Rush had strengthened his case if he had become topscorer of that EC season too. To my knowledge, Rush had no assists at the European Cup campaign. I have no footage of the 5-0 win against Odense but if I'm correct he had none in that one either. In terms of pure stats there is therefore in my view not much of a difference. 2 goals + 3 assists for Platini in 8 games versus 5 goals in 6 games for Rush. But it is not only the stats, it is also the things I said previously (Serie A topscorer + assist leader; Italian side winning EC/CWC for first time in more than a decade; ratings etc.). In general he was also a more complete player of course and his best form at Juve is enough reason for me to see him as undisputed #1. Showed good NT form too with 3 goals and 2 assists in 4 matches for France in 83-84 (prior to euros - 2 goals vs England btw). It would be very hard to knock a player like him - in the form of his life - off his perch. Think, as sidenote, that you are overly harsh on Sanchez while soft on Rush. Sanchez has best ratio of all strikers in top seven all-time list for his country while Rush has two ahead of him (though Charles and Ford were better attackers as Mexico had) Regarding European campaign I made some comments above. Looking at league stats there is not much difference. Rush scored 32 goals (1PK) in 41 games - field goal ratio of 0.76. Platini scored 20 goals (3PK) in 28 games - field goal ratio of 0.61. Is that difference of 0.15 sufficient to see him as statistically better given position on the pitch? Doubt it, GPG of 1st Division in 83/84 was 2.71; Serie A had GPG of 2.39 (difference of 13%). Rush had share of 32 / 73 = 0.44 in his team-goals. Platini a share of 0.35 (20 / 57) in his team-goals, and was assist-leader too. [Rush missed one game though and Platini two games so the 'real' share might be a bit different] EDIT: real share of Rush (striker) is 32 / 70 = 0.46. Platini (midfielder) is 20 / 54 = 0.37. Also, at that time orchestrators, playmakers, midfielders and all-rounders were generally rated high (though some of them were great goalscorers too). Depends on which type of players or position is rated the highest in a given timeframe (would C. Ronaldo win EPOTY in another era?). Papin was lucky to win the EPOTY one time but as you indicated, it could have turned out in a different way. He certainly was a scorer of many, many great goals (as was Rush but did not find a highlight video of him that quickly).
Can't edit post of above anymore but this is a comp of a regular league game at 83/84. Not a particular great performance I'd say (saw it before) but it gives an impression about playing style. Anyhow, hope you understand. Do not mean to be vicious but I think I've showed that stats were similar while playing as midfielder.
Ok, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not saying that Rush is a clear cut winner, but his goals, the calibre of competition and opposition he faced, and the awards he received are enough to make me think that he is more than a legitimate rival to Platini for that season.
Honestly no. Not because he wasn't worthy but because I didn't see anything to suggest his inclusion. France is a very frutrating league to try and assess for me because beyond the player of the year there is precious little to work on. I haven't seen any ratings, teams of the year or wider awards which makes it difficult to give people inclusion.
Serious question: what makes you think that opposition/resistance in 1st Division was categorically harder as Serie A? Is Bilbao, Benfica, Bucaresti harder as PSG, Manchester United (yes I know that it was before Ferguson), Porto?
For completeness I gathered the Don Balon ratings and goals by Sanchez (born 1958) and Lineker (born 1960) at La Liga. Sanchez at Atletico Madrid: 1981/1982: 8 goals (2PK), 20 games - no rating (8 forwards rated) 1982/1983: 15 goals (7PK), 31 games - no rating (5 forwards rated) 1983/1984: 12 goals (3PK), 27 games - no rating (3 forwards rated) 1984/1985: 19 goals (4PK), 33 games - #20 1.75 (2nd forward behind Butragueno) Sanchez at Real Madrid: 1985/1986: 22 goals (3PK), 33 games - #9 2.25 (2nd forward behind Butragueno) 1986/1987: 34 goals (12PK), 41 games - #1 2.50 1987/1988: 29 goals (9PK), 36 games - #11 1.67 (2nd forward behind S. Bakero) 1988/1989: 27 goals (5PK), 35 games - no rating (FW Juanito, Butragueno, Baltazar rated) 1989/1990: 38 goals (4PK), 35 games - #3 7.00 (highest forward; best foreigner) 1990/1991: 12 goals (2PK), 19 games - no rating (5 forwards rated) 1991/1992: 2 goals (0PK), 8 games - no rating (7 forwards rated) Sanchez at Rayo Vallecano: 1993/1994: 16 goals (5PK), 29 games - rating unknown --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lineker at Barcelona: 1986/1987: 20 goals (0PK), 41 games - #33 1.90 (7th forward in ranking) 1987/1988: 16 goals (4PK), 36 games - no rating (5 forwards rated) 1988/1989: 6 goals (0PK), 26 games - no rating (FW Juanito, Butragueno, Baltazar rated) ---------- Have to say that ratings are informative and interesting but the drop from 87/88 to 88/89 while delivering a similar output is strange. Ratings do not correlate with the output I think.
I didn't say it was categorically harder. I didn't say that Rush was categorically better, but I think that there is enough there to make me think that he was the top performer. What we can say is that Rush's schedule was certainly the more gruelling, came in a league ranked the best on a coefficient basis and in which six teams won European trophies in a six year period. Also that the tournament he performed in is naturally more prestigious. I try not to be too swayed by the average ratings and I don't think for a moment that they are definitive. However, just looking at them for a second: In 1983-4 Platini received 6.85 according to Player Ratings. According to dbscalcio he finished seventh. So can we be categorically clear that he was actually the best player in Italy? By the way I note that you are omitting Haku and AS Roma from their relevant schedules.
Both leagues have pros and cons in terms of difficulty. However, looking at who scored more than 20 goals too in Serie A between 1960 and 1992 (all of them forwards) and looking at who managed to score 30 goals too in First Division in other seasons (for lesser sides) I think the first one is more unique (in my view). You now shift to the background variables, which is fine, but you started with saying that the most basic statistical comparison favors Rush, even though you mentioned the other one was a midfielder. 20 goals in 28 games translates to 29 goals on a 41 games basis. Add the 13% higher GPG and you arrive at 32 goals too - although I realize that a calculation like this has issues. The last point has already been addressed by me. About the first point I'd say that it is possible to view it from two perspectives: the perspective of past reputations and the perspective of a groundbreaking result (first European EC/CWC trophy for Italy in more than decade). Both views has some merit. Well, Iniesta is sometimes rated higher as Messi. Does that make sense? According to you obviously not. Among those six above him are also defenders and GKs. A comparison like this becomes more useful if I know the margins with which Rush won his individual trophies (FWA, PFA). dbscalcio has Zico above Platini, other sources have this the other way around like Gazzetta (somehow some south american players are insanely highly rated). Zico played for a lowish side however (which is kind of unfair therefore one has to look at total career of a player) and his assists also do not match up - Platini had around 10 while Zico had about 2. It is common wisdom that Zico played as forward for Udinese, with Brazil fans claiming that this wasn't the case at all for Flamengo. Despite this slight difference in position, the overall production was in this season better for Platini and the share in total goals scored is similar as well. I omitted them because Haku wasn't an elite side and Rush did not score against Roma. The subject raised here was production against quality opposition. If I want to be a bit vicious I can ask the following rhetoric question: how many goals has Rush scored against Italian sides in his career, esp. in his prime (including friendlies)? Do not ask it of course because that relates to his whole career instead of one season and in 83/84 he played just against one Italian side. Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Answer is one goal (vs Genoa in 1992) in 6 games (two friendlies in 1990 and 1995; four competitive games)
Trying to get a little discussion going for the 87/88 thread, here is my quick list of *** players. 1. Diego Maradona 2. Franco Baresi 3. Ruud Gullit 4. Hugo Sanchez 5. John Aldridge 6. Gheorge Hagi 7. Ronald Koeman 8. John Barnes 9. Michel 10. Roberto Mancini 11. Alan Hansen 12. Thomas Hassler 13. Brain McClair 14. Jurgen Klinsmann
Can I ask why you've given *** to Brian McLair? Is this purely for the fact he was the first Manchester Utd player to score more than 20 league goals in a season since Best was it?
What would you say was his best individual year? This was Milan's best team defensive performance during Baresi's career with only 14 goals allowed in Serie A.
Just kind of shooting in the dark, very very strong goal scoring record for a very good 2nd place man u team. Would you say if anyone on the team was deserving of a *** performance that year who would it be? Robson?
Either one of the 1988-89, 1989-90 or 1991-92 years in my perception. No doubt he was an elite defender in 1987-88 though but compare it for example with what Koeman achieved in that particular season. In general I think, despite all his achievements, longevity and great 1990WC performance, that he sometimes receives too much praise compared with other great defenders - or sweepers (was he still a sweeper after 1987 btw? not clear cut). Defenders tend to be overlooked, to some degree. Not many end high in such lists. Most clear cut exceptions are of course Beckenbauer, Moore and a few others but most of those had excellent/phenomenal offensive and driving/playmaking capabilities too. But offensive minded defenders like Roberto Carlos, Scirea, Koeman, Mihaylovic are castigated very quickly whereas by playing offensively you naturally look defensively weak by the larger spaces you allow/vacate. More broadly I think he was definitely WC between 1986-1990 and also 1991-92 season (of course). 1990-91 and 1992-1994 period is also possible as WC but are I think not as strong. I believe he was not WC anymore after 1994 (which is not strange for a 34+ years old man). Depends a bit on how you define it, I'm personally not a fan of the 'world class' term. If in this case is meant 'in contention for best (traditional) central defender' in the world I think Baresi was in the race, if not the very best, in the years I highlighted (1986-1990 and 1991-92 season). If one only takes the first-tier nations (e.g. Italy, Spain, England, Germany) into account, because those are the easiest to rate on equal terms as Baresi, that amount of seasons is probably only matched or surpassed by 10 defenders at best - probably not more than five persons in history. But that is my view.
Here is Platini comment of Zico after his full season 83-84 : Zico is number one! (note that Platini is not a type to give praise to any one but Maradona, Cruijff Pele and Zico) In serieA 83-84, Zico was NO DOUBT regarded as the best player that season (he made more impression than Platini that season) Not sure if you were there watching at time to know it. ============================================ Here is a copy of Udinese squad (original italian though) and POSITION/RESPONSIBILITY: Virdis and Prandella are side forward and center forward ZICO: (described as "inferno") or so called "trescartista" later on by Italy (the main man in the hole) Causio , Massimo, Marchetti are the 3 MF behind Edinho (another Brazilian) was libero ... Here is an interview with "le ONZE" a French magazine http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M4Ni2HfMLho/T0JbbP1nvpI/AAAAAAAAk6Q/Q5Wtu9qbMds/s1600/Zico Udinese Cmp.1992.1993.Anc. -----169 %284%29.jpg In brief, sorry for my poor translation from French to English - About the best palyer label at time 83: ONZE: "we have seen somewhere written Zico is the best player in the world to come here, and other great names in SerieA only to look up to his name?" Zico: "it's an invented story, I never said that nor have I seen such" - About his mission and POSITION: ONXE: "(so) what Position will you play (for Unidese)"? Zico: " atatcking naturally, playing international away I organise the cneter midfield and counter attack, at home I will play more in advance - goals are what the team is counting on me the most"
I remember this article because I published it in the Zico thread - it was taken from La Stampa's newspaper. This is where he mentioned Zico and Maradona ahead of himself. But in regards to that 83/84 season, after the season was over the Italian program of RAI came out with the season highlights and goals. It states something like this: "Zico was the first half of the season's best player. But the second half of the season belonged to Platini!" There is some discrepancies depending on the source you read. I have one from 'La Gazzetta dello Sport' history book that says he was an "attaccante" when he arrived at Udinese: [click on the image to enlarge] Whereas Platini was deemed as a "trequartista/centrocampista": What I remember from his first season (and I've uploaded the highlights on Youtube many months ago) was a Zico operating in an advance position supporting Virdis in attack. And the formation on the field looked like this for Udinese, according to Gazzetta dello Sport: (Remember to click on image to see better since it does not come out well.) But you can notice that Zico is supporting Virdis in attack and Mauro is the centrocampista. That does not support the theory that Zico was operating as a 'trequartista'. On the other hand, Platini is well-established to operate further deep in a 'trequartista/centrocampista role': The second season of Zico was different though. He indeed seemed to operate further back behind Carnevali and Selvaggi. Anyway, thanks for the info, James.
This is more for another thread but Corriere dello Sport held an survey for best rookie and failure of the year. #1 was (of course) Gullit with a big margin. Number two was the Austrian Toni Polster, with the Brazilians Careca and Dunga following him in the survey. Among the failures Walter Casagrande (#2) and Ian Rush (#1) ranked on top. Do not say this is 100% reliable because a discrepancy with the available ratings exist but I thought this might be informative.
That's my main point. I'm not sure if any Manchester Utd player was deserving a *** rating for 87/88 season. As for Choccy, he was a fantastic player but I think comme rated him correctly for the 86/87 season (his last at Celtic before he moved 'on the cheap' to Utd) with a ** rating and he scored extremely well that season as well. In saying that, there was a lot more to McLair's game than just being an out and out goal scorer.
Me thinks that McClair was a overall better player as Aldridge. Aldridge became league topscorer in that season for Liverpool with 26 goals (legend Ian Rush was playing for Juventus in that particular season as we all know). McClair ended second in topscorer chart with 24 goals. However, Liverpool also had Beardsley and Barnes who scored 15 goals each. Beardsley was, in my view, one of the best English technicians of the past 30 years and Barnes a good winger of course (won PFA&FWA awards in first Liverpool season). For United midfielder Bryan Robson (11 goals) and Strachan (8 goals) shared the burden with McClair. I think the Liverpool player had the better supporting cast. The share in the total production also sorts of confirm this. Aldridge scored 29.8% of his team goals; McClair 33.8%. McClair played in four more games though. Both scored 2 goals in the 87/88 FA Cup campaign.
I did read in the European football yearbook that that season saw McClair employed more as an out and out striker than he had been at Celtic. I always remember him as being an industrious bridging player between midfield and attack, so certainly more to his game than goals. I am intending to start a thread about 1987-8 soon but have been waylaid by a couple of other projects I'm trying to get going again.