rightly so ,,, at least more than 60-70% true ... (unless they were dysfunctional teams like Brazil 2006, France 2010 Argentina 2002 ... or Real Galacticos 2004-06, Barca 00-03 ... that come to mind)
As far as I can remember, I think Da Silva and Alzamendi were the forwards for Uruguay at WC86, with Francescoli starting as playmaker. However, Ruben Paz often would come in at the start of the second half for either one of the forwards (usually Da Silva), then Francescoli moved to one of the forward positions. For WC90, Paz and Francescoli both started as playmakers, with Alzamendi and Sosa as the forwards. In regards to Maradona with Argentina, it is well known that Bilardo utilized an unprecedented 4-5-1 at the WC, with Valdano as the sole forward and reference point up front. However, if we look at the goals scored by Maradona, two of them were from advanced striker position (vs Itay and first one vs England), while the three others can be categorized as starting from midfield (both vs Belgium) or deep midfield (second vs England).
Actually Billardo varied his formation quite a lot, and so was Maradona position changed accordingly - Group stage + G16: 4 3 1 2 - Maradona was AM/playmaker (4games) --------------------- Pumpilo ---------------------- Cussicufo ---- Brown --------- Ruggeri -----Garre ------ Giusti ------ Batista ---- Buuruchaga------ -------------------- Maradona ------------------- ------- Pasculi -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Valdano ----------- - Quarter to Final: 5 3 1 1 or 3 5 1 1 Maradona was a FW/"trequartista" (3games) -------------------- Pumpilo--------------------- --------------------- Brown ----------------------- --------- Cucicuffo ------------Ruggeri ---------- Giusti ---------------------------------Olearticoecha -------- Enrique ---- Batista ----Burrugacha-------- ---------------- Maradona ------------------------- --------------------------Valdano ------------------ ================================================ As most people tend to remember the last 3 games especially vs England and Belgium where he scored 2 Best solo goals there, they LABELED Maradona as a FW in WC86! Fact is 57% as AM and 43% as FW at WC86, But in WC90, Maradona was solely used a FW just behind Caniggia in 3 5 1 1 formation
Pasculli only played one match for Argentina, against Uruguay where he scored the winner. Borghi played in the first match, but was dropped in favor of Giusti after he failed to impress Bilardo. The inclusion of Giusti allowed Maradona to play a bit further up the field, but he was still the main playmaker for the team throughout the competition. He just happened to also be their top scorer, with some goals he both starting and finishing the play.
Thanks everyone for their contributions! I guess it's a bit of a dilemma with Maradona .... having him as a midfielder doesn't do him justice points-wise (he would skyrocket like Zico in '82 if we'd have him among the forwards). But as Pipiolo and James pointed out, Maradona was just a bit more of a midfielder than a forward in '86. Due to msioux's information on R.Gallego (DF instead of MF) and Romero (MF instead of FW), the final results would have to be altered anyway. Should I move Maradona to the forward category? Still undecided.
Although the data doesn't go back beyond 1966, I guess calling him a forward would tie in slightly more with the old World Cups too (where there were of course more forwards playing, but some of the inside forwards or deep-lying centre-forwards played equivalently to him in terms of areas of the pitch perhaps although his style and abilities were more unique). Also, it seems for this purpose that the stats tie in more with those of a forward, for players in that sort of role - not completely but it does seem that central midfielders did rack up many more passes and of course interceptions etc so were functioning quite differently from outright AM's or free role players. Having said that I don't mind really whether he's called a MF or FW myself. For consistency I suppose if we say he's a FW then all similar players in later World Cups should be too (and hopefully it wouldn't get too arguable - I'd still say Hagi would be a MF I think for example). And if someone asked me if he played as a MF or FW in that World Cup generally speaking I'd still be undecided ! As msioux highlighted it was probably a bit of both (which wasn't the case for Hagi in '90 or '94 as far as I know/remember although I believe he did play a bit in attack in Club football sometimes).
It is good to note that goal+assists are often decisive for people. In those categories he is superior to the others like Pelé, Zico, Cruyf etc.
In a way most big names were 'unusual' cases. Beckenbauer was an unusual midfielder/defender; Pelé in 1970 had midfield duties too (you see him engaging tackles in midfield, often resulting in a foul ); Cruyff was unusual forward; Zico in 1982 can be seen as a midfielder.
Nice post. Maradona was a '10'. Attacking midfielders are basically withdrawn forwards. So although he was nominally part of the midfield, we all know that his primary role was to attack. For the purpose of these comparative stats and ratings/ratings, he could be in the 'FW' category, but as you point out well, nominal field positions as well as actual roles on the pitch have evolved over the years, so it may not bee too practical to use the same denominations (DF-MF-FW) across all eras.
Like you said is a very close call. I put it 50-50% btw, i think that in last games, the Argentinian RWB was H.Enrique and Giusti still played in 1st midfield line, with Burruchaga playing attacking role in midfield.
Yes, they had an extensive role. It is not only Maradona who had this. Also depends on fitness level. I.e. Zico against Italy was more like a forward.
Like I put up, at WC82 and 86: he was more of a MF than FW (with 60%) only at WC90 he was 80% as FW We have to put that per WC. Looking at the "position ONLY" yes it was close call as he was either a FW or MF, however WATCHING him playing (or withhelp of heat map_) it would indicate him more of a "trescartista" = playmaker behind the striker/FW Here I suggest you have to put 2 category for MF: AM (including attacking winger) and CM (including DM) - Maradona was well fit in AM more than a FW (in the mould of Rossi82 Muller 70's or Ronaldo98/02 )
Found this: Most (sanctioned) fouls per game in the World Cup 1966-2006 [among top eight teams who played the most matches at WC level] Netherlands 21.9 Argentina 19.1 France 18.0 Italy 17.7 Spain 16.9 Germany 16.8 England 16.7 Brazil 16.1 http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00019/ttsthreelions_19041a.pdf For 2010 WC it was (last 16 teams): Mexico 21.0 Chile 19.8 Paraguay 19.4 Netherlands 18.0 Ghana 18.0 Japan 17.5 Slovakia 17.0 Brazil 15.6 Portugal 15.0 South Korea 14.2 Uruguay 14.1 United States 13.5 Argentina 13.0 England 12.8 Spain 11.6 Germany 10.7
Using the overall best-performing players by position I came up with the following "Best XI" for each World Cup 1966 to 1986: 1966 Banks - Hilario, Moore, Weber, Schnellinger - Zocco, Graca, Overath - Augusto, Eusebio, Park 1970 n/a - Carlos Alberto, Chumpitaz, Rosato, Mujica - Clodoaldo, De Sisti, Overath - Seeler, Müller, Pelé 1974 n/a - Nelinho, Beckenbauer, Heredia, Breitner - Kasperczak*, Deyna, Overath - Hoeness, Cruijff, Grahn (* same points: Carpegiani, Acimovic) 1978 Fillol - Olguin, Passarella, Krol, Dietz - Causio, Bonhof, Batista - Kempes, Mendonca, Rummenigge 1982 Koncilia - Mills, Scirea, Trésor, Junior - Tardelli, Giresse, Falcao - Vandersmissen, Boniek, Zico 1986 Pfaff (Bats) - Battiston, Augenthaler, N.Eder, Amoros - Alemao, Tigana, Maradona, Elzo - Valdano, Careca
pele with 33 overrall points means [statistically speaking]that he was the top performer at the 70 cup and deservingly took home the golden ball...but how does valdano scores higher points [statistically]to beats diego for the top spot when it is common knowledge diego was the best player at cup 86.....
Hello everyone! Does anyone know, where the information on Wikipedia about World Cup Golden/Silver/Bronze balls is taken from? g.e., it is written there that Gerson was voted 2nd player of the tournament in 1970, but I can’t find anywhere confirmation of this info. Despite FIFA says that the official Golden Ball started only in 1982, I found the following info on FIFA official website. Bobby Charltone was awarded Golden Ball in 1966 https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=43993/profile.html Eusébio was awarded Bronze Ball in 1966 https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=39547/profile.html Pele was awarded Golden Ball in 1970 https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=63869/profile.html Cruyff was awarded Golden Ball in 1974 https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=1043/profile.html Beckenbauer was awarded Silver Ball in 1974. https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=25113/profile.html This info from FIFA.com doesn’t contradict the one given in Wiki. But there’s nothing about Moore-1966, Gérson-1970, Müller-1970, Deyna-1974 on FIFA.com. Also, FIFA.com says that Kocsis was awarded Golden Ball in 1954. https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=174669/profile.html Whereas Wiki says that it was Puskás who was awarded Golden Ball in 1954. So, does somebody have info about this?
For anyone interested SofaScore now have advanced stats on their website for all the World Cups since 1966. Phenomenal resource and well worth checking out. World Cup – scores, standings, schedule | Sofascore
I'm wondering if it's because they are using OPTA data second hand (but re-labelling chances created as key passes for example: maybe I misunderstand but I thought key passes was often something different according to various sites, including OPTA-data based ones....?). So they wouldn't have watched all the action back again themselves to apply the criteria they used for 2018 for example. Interesting to see anyway for sure, and good to have the data back accessible again, even though obviously full games the data is generated from are available on video too (plus some ones from earlier years).
Ah, I worked out how to quickly navigate to game pages in group stages now (maybe everyone else already spotted it but I'll add the 'tip' just in case not): The W, D, and L to indicate win, draw and loss are clickable in the group tables, so from this page World Cup – scores, standings, schedule | Sofascore I can get to here quickly Brazil vs Scotland live score, H2H and lineups | Sofascore Or from this page World Cup – scores, standings, schedule | Sofascore Here quickly for example Argentina vs Nigeria live score, H2H and lineups | Sofascore It looks like just the player ratings based on the stats, rather than the full stats breakdown for each player for that particular game, is available though on the game pages (unless I missed anything else!). EDIT: Actually, no those links I put in for the games now divert to the general Brazil vs Scotland, and Argentina vs Nigeria pages it seems, but yep when I did click the W for Brazil's 1st game in the 1998 group, and the L for Nigeria's 2nd game in the 1994 group I did navigate to the game pages anyway so that's the way to do it. 2nd EDIT: At first glance they certainly seem to have done a good job with the team formations, and it's impressive to have game stats for possession, successful dribbles, passes etc by team. Maybe a boot icon for assists could have been good as well as the ball one for the goals, but the allocated assists can be seen when clicking on each player on the pitch diagram anyway (just not more detailed stats like I say). It's definitely a good job overall anyway I'd say.
Concentrating a little on 1994, as it's probably (in part due to retained memories, in part cos I looked back on videos not long ago) the one I know best (or maybe at this moment it should still be 2018!).... - Maybe here and there there could be a slight wrong placement of a player in the line-ups, but on the whole they definitely seem to have made a good effort with them in terms of the formations. I was thinking for example that Zinho was always placed left of centre (including when Rai played although I'm not checking right now as I type), and I think Yankov of Bulgaria played more in midfield (and vice versa Grun should be in defence for Belgium, while I think the formation might be a bit off here and there for the Netherlands too eg Winter should be at right back, and certainly behind Overmars...every time they shared the pitch I'm thinking) and the Bulgaria formation after game 1 could be seen like a diamond (with Sirakov the AM, and Balakov to the left I think). With Argentina in general for example, maybe it's pretty hard to be definitive about what formation they played and where each attacker/AM (such as Caniggia, Balbo) would be best placed anyway I think (so the 4-2-3-1 is not far away at least)! It is possible I'm wrong about some of this anyway though! - Some ratings I doubt I'd agree with (eg the opening low ones for Letchkov and Luis Enrique, and I guess I'd not have such a wide gap between those ones and their top rated performances), so that's where it'd be potentially interesting to understand what stats were leading to those numbers. Baggio vs Spain I'd rate higher I'm sure for example too, literally and in comparison to his Nigeria performance, so again it'd be interesting to know what was statistically causing those ratings (the pretty decent ones vs Ireland and Mexico are interesting though, and maybe the stats are indicating fairly in that case that the narrative he was playing 'bad' as such in the early games is a little bit off at least). - I'm pretty sure goals scored and assists will weigh quite heavily by default, but interesting to see for example Redondo's 9 in the first game vs Greece (which IIRC was on Youtube as a Redondo touches video, whether it still is or not, and based on that partly I think it was probably his best game of the tournament) - I'm guessing volume of accurate passes, decent amount of 'dribbles', some recoveries and tackles etc lead to that (he is credited with 1 assist of course though so that does contribute something). - Interesting to see the low ball possession stats for Clemente's Spain! Much different to recent times in that respect, even though Guardiola himself was a player (and at club level under Cruyff, his team's possession stats would surely be more akin to his Barcelona, Man City teams or Del Bosque's Spain team for example I think, to a decent extent in general anyway - I think the same kind of situation would be occuring with Bohinen of Norway too, with lower possession and a different tactical approach compared to how it was playing for Nottingham Forest...although I don't think he played very well in the World Cup actually himself, certainly in comparison to his club form...and maybe the grade vs Mexico for example even looks slightly generous if anything - I think he had carried injury/fatigue issues into the tournament though after playing continuously for quite a lot of months due to his transfer situation IIRC, but anyway that's going off on a random tangent a bit now!).
On the app you can see average positions for the whole team as well as the individual heatmaps you can see if you click on individual players on the site.
Yeah, the heat maps can be a good guide when in doubt in terms of the position/role of the player in the line-up - I hadn't really studied them yet and in general I was commenting without a thorough inspection of everything, hence not realising how to navigate to the game pages at first...and I see now it can be done at the bottom of the main page for each year too, although I think using the group tables and clicking on W, D and L for each team's results is probably better/quicker anyway, as well as using the knockout stage results listed just below them similarly. I'm just noticing now that maybe things are a work in progress, because I got the heatmaps up for Cafu and Ronaldo vs Scotland in 1998, but for Rivaldo no heatmap appeared but a detailed stats breakdown (as opposed to just minutes played, goals and assists) for that match did, as follows: Minutes played 90' Goals 0 Assists 0 Touches 90 Acc. passes 58/67 (87%) Key passes 3 Crosses (acc.) 2 (0) Long balls (acc.) 4 (4) Shots on target 1 Shots off target 4 Shots blocked 2 Dribble attempts (succ.) 2 (0) Ground duels (won) 10 (3) Aerial duels (won) 1 (1) Possession lost 16 Fouls 1 Was fouled 2 Clearances 0 Blocked shots 0 Interceptions 1 Tackles 1 Dribbled past 1 Maybe they'll be gradually adding those for all players, and then we'll get more insight into how the overall ratings came about too (and anyway, the stats themselves are possibly more interesting, as it will always depend on the formula in terms of overall scores, and that's why Castrol's 'ratings' based on stats are somewhat different for example, and WhoScored will show different ratings for recent World Cup games too, as another example).