I'm going to do the analysis of the top 50 voting by nationality now. I think the only players who receive points in the top 30 voting but not the top 50 voting are Denis Law (Scotland) and Oleg Blokhin (Soviet Union-Ukraine) who are both HM's for the original voting, plus Jimmy Johnstone also of Scotland - they received these points from the top 30 video makers who produced the Youtube videos I posted and included in the voting (instead of the Daily Mail's top 50 which I used for the original method voting).
I'll do it later or another day as the page crashed and re-loaded . I'll include Ladislao Kubala for Czechoslovakia and Hungary and give half points to each, and the same for Josef Bican and Austria/Czechoslovakia. Otherwise the players will be listed with the country they mainly played for (first played for in most cases or if in doubt).
I still plan to do the full analysis about nationalities, but for now here is the current concensus version of the top 50 (with a tied 50th place so a dispute over 50th place between an old South American and a more recent South American but no other ties) for the Top 50 voting: 1 Pele 1190 (Brazil) 2 Diego Maradona 1164 (Argentina) 3 Johan Cruyff 1144 (Netherlands) 4 Franz Beckenbauer 1092 (Germany) 5 Alfredo Di Stéfano 1086 (Argentina) 6 Ferenc Puskás 1041 (Hungary) 7 Michel Platini 1023 (France) 8 Garrincha 991 (Brazil) 9 Eusebio 911 (Portugal) 10 Ronaldo 909 (Brazil) 11 Zico 896 (Brazil) 12 George Best 859 (N.Ireland) 13 Zinedine Zidane 857 (France) 14 Gerd Muller 850 (Germany) 15 Bobby Charlton 834 (England) 16 Marco van Basten 823 (Netherlands) 17 Lev Yashin 662 (Soviet Union) 18 Paolo Maldini 644 (Italy) 19 Lothar Matthaus 629 (Germany) 20 Romario 606 (Brazil) 21 Franco Baresi 558 (Italy) 22 Roberto Baggio 525 (Italy) 23 Ruud Gullit 521 (Netherlands) 24 Bobby Moore 494 (England) 25 Didí 477 (Brazil) 26 Stanley Matthews 431 (England) 27 Rivelino 430 (Brazil) 28 Giuseppe Meazza 385 (Italy) 29 Lionel Messi 370 (Argentina) 30 Ronaldinho 365 (Brazil) 31 Zizinho 295 (Brazil) 32 Jose Manuel Moreno 293 (Argentina) 33 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 271 (Germany) 34 Dino Zoff 265 (Italy) 35 Gianni Rivera 242 (Italy) 36 Leonidas 233 (Brazil) 37 Raymond Kopa 231 (France) 38 Thierry Henry 210 (France) 39 Fritz Walter 202 (Germany) 40 Paolo Rossi 191 (Italy) 41 Ladislao Kubala 163 (Czechoslovakia/Hungary) 42 Matthias Sindelar 162 (Austria) 43 Daniel Passarella 159 (Argentina) 44 Dennis Bergkamp 147 (Netherlands) 45 Sandor Kocsis 142 (Hungary) 46 Rivaldo 139 (Brazil) 47 Michael Laudrup 137 (Denmark) 48 Johan Neeskens 112 (Netherlands) 49 Mario Kempes 111 (Argentina) 50= Juan Alberto Schiaffino 107 (Uruguay) 50= Gabriel Batistuta 107 (Argentina) And here is the concensus top 30 for the Top 30 voting (actually a few more votes counting towards this - no ties at all among these 30 currently): 1 Pele 816 (Brazil) 2 Diego Maradona 786 (Argentina) 3 Johan Cruyff 762 (Netherlands) 4 Alfredo Di Stefano 696 (Argentina) 5 Franz Beckenbauer 687 (Germany) 6 Ferenc Puskas 643 (Hungary) 7 Michel Platini 596 (France) 8 Garrincha 581 (Brazil) 9 Ronaldo 503 (Brazil) 10 Eusebio 501 (Portugal) 11 Zico 490 (Brazil) 12 Zinedine Zidane 475 (France) 13 George Best 471 (N.Ireland) 14 Gerd Muller 424 (Germany) 15 Marco van Basten 381 (Netherlands) 16 Bobby Charlton 365 (England) 17 Lev Yashin 320 (Soviet Union) 18 Romario 268 (Brazil) 19 Paolo Maldini 225 (Italy) 20 Lothar Matthaus 201 (Germany) 21 Roberto Baggio 175 (Italy) 22 Franco Baresi 170 (Italy) 23 Didi 147 (Brazil) 24 Lionel Messi 137 (Argentina) 25 Ronaldinho 136 (Brazil) 26 Stanley Matthews 126 (England) 27 Bobby Moore 115 (England) 28 Jose Manuel Moreno 103 (Argentina) 29 Ruud Gullit 89 (Netherlands) 30 Giussepe Meazza 83 (Italy)
Analysis by nationality for the top 50 voting: Brazil 1 Pele 1190 8 Garrincha 991 10 Ronaldo 909 11 Zico 896 20 Romario 606 25 Didí 477 27 Rivelino 430 30 Ronaldinho 365 31 Zizinho 295 36 Leonidas 233 46 Rivaldo 139 59 Falcao 90 61= Jairzinho 84 65 Socrates 78 68= Nilton Santos 74 76= Carlos Alberto 63 79 Cafu 62 83= Kaká 53 86= Roberto Carlos 50 95= Djalma Santos 34 102= Tostao 29 107= Arthur Friedenreich 25 107= Junior 25 118= Mario Zagallo 20 121 Domingos da Guia 17 123 Bebeto 15 132= Careca 9 134= Leandro 8 137= Gerson 7 151= Jorginho 3 Total points = 7277 HM's: Ademir Marques de Menezes Vava Julinho Argentina 2 Diego Maradona 1164 5 Alfredo Di Stéfano 1086 29 Lionel Messi 370 32 Jose Manuel Moreno 293 43 Daniel Passarella 159 49 Mario Kempes 111 50= Gabriel Batistuta 107 55 Omar Sivori 98 68= Adolfo Pedernera 74 144= Ubaldo Fillol 5 148= Fernando Redondo 4 Total points = 3471 HM's: Claudio Caniggia Angel Labruna Luis Monti Raimundo Orsi Antonio Sastre Italy 18 Paolo Maldini 644 21 Franco Baresi 558 22 Roberto Baggio 525 28 Giuseppe Meazza 385 34 Dino Zoff 265 35 Gianni Rivera 242 40 Paolo Rossi 191 54 Sandro Mazzola 99 57 Giacinto Facchetti 95 83= Francesco Totti 53 86= Gianluigi Buffon 50 92 Valentino Mazzola 40 94 Luigi Riva 36 97 Gaetano Scirea 33 107= Bruno Conti 25 124 Fabio Cannavaro 14 125= Claudio Gentile 12 130= Alessandro Del Piero 10 134= Demetrio Albertini 8 137= Alessandro Nesta 7 151= Roberto Donadoni 3 158= Marco Tardelli 1 Total points = 3296 HM's: Gianfranco Zola Silvio Piola Germany 4 Franz Beckenbauer 1092 14 Gerd Muller 850 19 Lothar Matthaus 629 33 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 271 39 Fritz Walter 202 71 Uwe Seeler 72 82 Matthias Sammer 54 90= Jurgen Klinsmann 42 113= Oliver Kahn 23 128= Berti Vogts 11 134= Sepp Maier 8 142= Wolfgang Overath 6 Total points = 3260 HM's: Pierre Littbarski Paul Breitner Gunter Netzer Thomas Hassler Helmut Rahn Andreas Brehme Netherlands 3 Johan Cruyff 1144 16 Marco van Basten 823 23 Ruud Gullit 521 44 Dennis Bergkamp 147 48 Johan Neeskens 112 76= Frank Rijkaard 63 113= Piet Keizer 23 122 Arjen Robben 16 142= Ruud van Nistelrooy 6 144= Edgar Davids 5 148= Wesley Sneijder 4 154= Rob Rensenbrink 2 Total points = 2866 HM's: Johnny Rep Ruud Krol Wim van Hanegem France 7 Michel Platini 1023 13 Zinedine Zidane 857 37 Raymond Kopa 231 38 Thierry Henry 210 61= Just Fontaine 84 85 Lilian Thuram 52 113= Eric Cantona 23 137= Marcel Desailly 7 154= David Trezegeut 2 158= Robert Pires 1 Total points = 2490 HM's: Jean Tigana Patrick Vieira Jean-Pierre Papin England 15 Bobby Charlton 834 24 Bobby Moore 494 26 Stanley Matthews 431 52= Gordon Banks 103 73= Duncan Edwards 68 101 Kevin Keegan 31 118= Tom Finney 20 148= Bryan Robson 4 154= Gary Lineker 2 Total points = 1987 HM's: Jimmy Greaves Glenn Hoddle John Barnes Paul Gascoigne David Beckham Peter Shilton Tommy Lawton Billy Wright Dixie Dean Hungary 6 Ferenc Puskás 1041 41 Ladislao Kubala 81.5 (163/2 - half points) 45 Sandor Kocsis 142 66= Jozsef Bozsik 76 98= Gyorgy Sarosi 32 116 Nandor Hidegkuti 22 Total points = 1394.5 HM's: Florian Albert Zoltan Czibor Ferenc Deak Portugal 9 Eusebio 911 60 Luís Figo 86 61= Cristiano Ronaldo 84 158= Deco 1 Total points = 1082 HM's: Mario Coluna Rui Costa Northern Ireland 12 George Best 859 Total points = 859 HM's: Danny Blanchflower Soviet Union 17 Lev Yashin 662 Total points = 662 HM's: Rinat Dasaev Oleg Blokhin Denmark 47 Michael Laudrup 137 56 Peter Schmeichel 97 137= Preben Elkjaer 7 Total points = 241 HM's: Brian Laudrup Allan Simonsen Spain 72 Luis Suarez Miramontes 69 76= Xavi 63 80 Andres Iniesta 61 105 Francisco Gento 28 132= Emilio Butragueño 9 144= Raul 5 154= Telmo Zarra 2 Total points = 237 HM's: Ricardo Zamora Fernando Hierro Uruguay 50= Juan Alberto Schiaffino 107 89 Hector Scarone 43 107= Enzo Francescoli 25 112 Jose Nasazzi 24 120 José Leandro Andrade 18 Total points = 217 HM's: Jose Emilio Santamaria Obdulio Varela Austria 42 Matthias Sindelar 162 73= Josef Bican 34 (68/2 - half points) 125= Ernst Ocwirk 12 Total points = 208 Peru 64 Teofilo Cubillas 83 90= Cesar Cueto 42 151= Hector Chumpitaz 3 Total points = 128 Czechoslovakia 41 Ladislao Kubala 81.5 (163/2 - half points) 73= Josef Bican 34 (68/2 - half points) Total points = 115.5 HM's: Josef Masopust Liberia 52= George Weah 103 Total points = 103 Scotland 58 Kenny Dalglish 94 Total points = 94 HM's: Denis Law John Robertson Alex James Sweden 68= Gunnar Nordahl 74 125= Gunnar Gren 12 137= Nils Liedholm 7 Total points = 93 HM's: Henrik Larsson Kurt Hamrin Tomas Brolin Yugoslavia 81 Dejan Savicevic 60 102= Dragan Dzajic 29 Total points = 89 HM's: Dragan Stojkovic Stjepan Bobek Romania 66= Gheorghe Hagi 76 Total points = 76 Wales 95= John Charles 34 106 Ryan Giggs 26 130= Ian Rush 10 Total points = 70 HM's: Neville Southall Bulgaria 75 Hristo Stoichkov 64 Total points = 64 Poland 98= Kazimierz Deyna 32 117 Zbigniew Boniek 21 Total points = 53 HM's: Wlodzmierz Lubanski Gzregorz Lato Chile 88 Elías Figueroa 49 Total points = 49 Paraguay 93 Arsenio Erico 37 Total points = 37 Cameroon 102= Samuel Eto'o 29 144= Roger Milla 5 Total points = 34 Mexico 98= Hugo Sanchez 32 Total points = 32 Ukraine 107= Andriy Shevchenko 25 Total points = 25 Nigeria 128= Jay Jay Okocha 11 Total points = 11 Belgium HM's: Jan Ceulemans Enzo Scifo Paul van Himst Croatia HM's: Davor Suker Czech Republic HM's: Pavel Nedved Ecuador HM's: Alberto Spencer Ghana HM's: Abedi Pele Finland HM's: Jari Litmanen Republic of Ireland HM's: Roy Keane
Some of the players ranked ahead of Messi and Ronaldo are just laughable. It is beyond me how they can continue to shatter records for fun yet the nostalgia continues to seep into people's juidgements. They should both be AT LEAST Top 25.
You're welcome to cast your own vote if you like mate . You can choose a top 50 or top 30 and I'll add it on to the totals.
I'm assuming HM stands for honourable mention PDG. Can I ask why you chose John Robertson over Jimmy Johnstone? Is it purely just your personal preference or is there something more detailed?
Yeah HM is honourable mention (I noticed in my early Big Soccer days it was being typed like that on a few threads). btw fraser it'd be great if you'd like to add a top 50 yourself and I'd be interested to see your selection (no pressure though if for whatever reason you prefer not to). On Robertson/Johnstone - Of course I'm more familiar with Robertson though I do have a good idea of Johnstone's game too (I guess you noticed from my experimental alternative top 30 voting system that I used a couple of Youtube top 30's instead of the Daily Mail's list and that Johnstone was included in one of those selections and btw it was a Spaniard who compiled that set of videos - the first part might still be avialable which is from 21-30 and includes Johnstone so let me know if you'd like to see it; unfortunately not all the videos are available now due to claims by 3rd parties etc): From my understanding Robertson was more of a visionary type of player who relied less on pace and quick feet and more on picking out of passes, crosses though as I know you're aware he was also a very tricky player who could go past players at walking pace. I remember you said he was a favourite of yours so I don't need to go into loads of detail about playing style but in his prime at the end of the 70's I do think in his own way he was a really world-class player (he was quite unusual for a winger I suppose - maybe there are some slight similarities to the Portuguese Chalana who played in Euro '84? i.e both seemed able to work themselves time and space at will and were very accurate with picking out team-mates). Forest fans do see Robertson as the Club's best ever player generally (so partly I had this in mind in relation to Shilton's position in my list - in my latest version I did hold back both players from going any higher actually as even out of familiarity rather than bias I could have a tendency to rate them very high - I think both merit about where I put them although hard to compare to some of the very old players - Shilton is probably more of an accepted/expected choice from world fans though I should think). Johnstone was definately more of a 'nippy' player who could wriggle free from any tight situation in a flash and also had elements of genius to his game I know. Brian Clough praised him in an interview once and actually said something along the lines of "I had my own player like that - John Robertson" - that's not a direct quote though cos I can't remember it. I've seen a documentary about Jimmy on ESPN Classic and along with the stories of getting stranded on rowing boats whilst drunk etc . there were many plaudits about his playing style and abilities and recollections of great performances (eg against England shortly after the boat incident, against Real Madrid which impressed Di Stefano and Real fans alike IIRC...). He'd have to be among the next Scots on my list I think if not the very next choice from among those I didn't list. I know for sure that a team with both Robertson and Johnstone as the wingers would be great to watch and very tricky to defend against! There are some other very talented wingers I didn't list I suppose (eg Paulo Futre - I keep metioning Portuguese players now lol) so hopefully it's not a shun of Jimmy Johnstone - it does seem that some people view him as a top 100 ever candidate while in other polls such as the IFFHS one he doesn't really feature. I think he was an enigma of a player but surely a very important one for Celtic in their glory days - I think Robertson had more of an impact in Forest's two European Cup Finals than Johnstone did in Celtic's one but that's not the only reason I've put Robertson in, and Johnstone was definately capable of great performances vs any type of opposition I think. In summary, I didn't really expect Robertson to be included by anyone but me (maybe you'd be 2nd most likely depending on the length of your list - if it went well beyond 50 for example which certainly isn't required; otherwise other Forest fans, although FourFourTwo put him in their top 100 chosen in 1997 apparently) but I do think he was a brilliant enough provider to be a reasonable inclusion. Meanwhile Johnstone was a top player and he'll be a welcome addition to the points for the main voting should anyone decide to include him . As mentioned I know from previous comments of yours including in the History Group and by PM that you are very familiar with Robertson, and I'm sure very much so with Johnstone too - actually you saw Robertson in real time wheras I've seen videos etc due to our age - I'd be really interested to get a comparison between them from you even if you don'want to vote - about their playing styles etc not just who you'd rate higher which I guess might be Johnstone. Despite what Clough said, I tend to think they were quite different although they both came from the same suburb of Glasgow IIRC from the documentary I saw.
At work just now mate but I will definitely get back to you on it. Thanks for the in depth reply. Just what I was hoping for as I wasn't trying to infer you were wrong with your ratings but rather why you chose one over the other, which you have answered in full. And you are correct in the fact that I have a very strong admiration for John Robertson who was indeed a favourite of mine as well although maybe not as much as Jinky.
Thanks for your reply too fraser - also just what I was hoping for! I think a more in depth discussion about Robertson and Johnstone is possible but I hope people can get a decent idea from my post. Anything you can add will be great though as I mentioned in my post. I guess wearing the green and white will always endear a player more to you, and wearing the red and white at home and yellow with blue trim away would have the same effect for me (referring to Forest's kit at that time - not worn the yellow that much after that time). That said, maybe you still prefer Jinky's style of play marginally too anyway...
What I dislike about these general rankings is that they never separate mostly offensive players from mostly defensive players. How can you rank on a same list a centre-back and a centre-forward and compare them? How can you say who was the better player between Cruyff and Beckenbauer, for example, when they had completely different functions? It's virtually impossible. And on what planet should Matthaus be ranked higher than Didi on any football ranking? Didi is the greatest CM ever with considerable ease.
Sorry it took so long for the reply but here goes ... I'm obviously very biased with this but it's a harder choice than I think you can imagine. I really do have a lot of time for John Robertson. He certainly had a large impact on my early footballing life. Robbo didn't look like a traditional winger whereas Jinky most certainly did. Both players could go past players with ease, as any credible winger should be able to do. However I think Jinky had more in his locker than Robbo, although I would side with Robbo on delivery from out wide. I'd also say that Jinky may have received better ammo to work with. A lot of that came from the criminally underrated Bobby Murdoch who was a fantastic footballer (ask Souness if you don't believe me ) but is overlooked by many due to his ridiculous haul of only 12 international caps. But that's a discussion for another day. Both players succeeded domestically and won the highest honours they could, and yet both were underused by their country. Not sure of Robertson's strike rate but Jinky averaged a goal in just under every 4 matches in 498 appearances in all competitions. He also played 66 matches in Europe netting on 16 occasions. You're no doubt aware of the Alfredo Di Stefano testimonial in '67, where as defending European champions, we beat Real 1-0 with Jinky turning in the kind of performance that had the Real Madrid fans shouting 'ole' every time he went past a player. Jinky finished 3rd in 1967 European footballer of the year award behind Florian Albert and Bobby Charlton. In that season he was arguably the best player in European football but was never given the honour for it. He destroyed Leeds in both legs of the semi final of the European Cup in '70. Some quotes on Johnstone - Ex referee Willie Young speaking on travelling to France as a linesman for a UEFA cup match met an ex-international who, on the mention of Glasgow, said "Ah Glasgow Celtic. Jimmy Johnstone - fantastique, fantastique" Just Fontaine "At his peak, George (Best) was a better all-round player than Jimmy Johnstone, but for individual skill Jinky was streets ahead. Bestie was like the great Di Stefano in the way he could see things happening but for pure ability there was no one like wee Jimmy. At his greatest he was unstoppable." Tommy Gemmell "Jimmy Johnstone was one of the best players you will ever see. Celtic fans still remember the night he tormented Leeds - one of the finest club sides England has ever produced - at Hampden Park in a European Cup semi final in 1970. He also did it against a world class full back in Terry Cooper, who was at the peak of his career." Alan Hansen "One player who sticks in my mind is the little red haired winger Jimmy Johnstone. He had such skill and was the kind of player I always enjoy watching." Pele "You've just played against a world class player today. He can do that to anybody." Sir Alf Ramsey So you see, it is not just blinkered Celtic supporters who hold him in such high esteem.
Di Stefano's testimonial. Only about 6mins long but worth watching to give an idea of Jinky's performance that night.
Thanks Fraser, great contribution (I'll do the rep in a minute when I finish the reply ) . Yeah, I knew about his great performance vs Real Madrid and the fans giving him 'ole's' plus IIRC Di Stefano giving his own glowing comments. Nice to see the other quotes too including the one from Pele that I hadn't read before. I like Just Fontaine's comment - simple but very complimentary . Jinky has been drafted in a few of our all-time drafts I remember and is also in the 'Greatest Players of All Time' book I have that I mentioned earlier in the thread - there are a high number of British players tbh but anyway he does have a great reputation I think (the Youtube video I mentioned also has him in the top 30 of course too). Anyway, you make a good case and no doubt he belongs to a discussion about world class players. Not sure about Gemmell saying he was 'more talented' than Best (although saying less complete) but for sure he was very skillful on the ball. I saw the video you posted in the other thread (the song was great - claiming him to be better than Pele, Cruyff, Best, Eusebio btw) - some of those clips were in the 'top 30' video I mentioned but there are some more I hadn't seen I think - he's a little bit like Garrincha I think in the way he dribbles (maybe the Scottish Garrincha!). I think you're right about Robertson's delivery being his main forte, but that he also went past players with ease as you said and did it in his own time. As Clough said 'give him a yard of grass and he's the picasso of our game'. The main Wikipedia stuff including Clough quotes is on this PES page but I thought it was worth mentioning that a Yugoslavian poster (the same one that has posted useful info about the likes of Branko Zebec on here and elsewhere) commented that he was a remarkable passer and suggested therefore passing as a special ability. I suppose Europeans would get to see him quite a bit in the European Cup, but maybe also English league games from time to time - I'm not sure: http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=184&t=8506 Robertson's goalscoring rate seems to have been about 1 in 6 overall for Forest, but 1 in 3 or 4 in his best years (eg 12 league goals in 42 games in 77/78) - he did take penalties though and scored quite a few of them. I know you mentioned Murdoch to comme when he was doing his best players ever lists. I'm still not really informed enough about him to compare to Forest players but I think it's true that there wasn't one prolific scorer/expert goal poacher in the Forest side and Robertson didn't set up one player more than others. Trevor Francis and Tony Woodcock were world-class forward players though.
Sorry PDG. Should have made it more clearer. Regarding Murdoch, I meant he was a terrific passer of the ball, both in perception and execution, and would have given Johnstone plenty of the ball in the kind of positions where he could do most damage to the opposition and his opponent.
Ah ok thanks for the clarification (I remembered I think you said he was a good scorer before when talking to comme, but could be wrong as it was in the History Group we can't see now). In terms of giving Robertson the ball, I think Forest players were encouraged to do that (Clough apparently told Trevor Francis to "just give him the ball as he's better than you" or something like that after he'd signed Francis for a record 1 million pounds). From what I've seen John McGovern was generally a very good distributor from deep inclucing precise slide-rule passes out to Robertson and Woodcock was a very good link player for Robertson to interact with. btw I read somwhere that Ally McLeod had said that he'e be picking all the Scottish Forest players in his squad for the 1978 World Cup after seeing them win 4-0 at Man Utd, but that he didn't pick McGovern because he didn't realise he was Scottish. Apologies to McLeod if that's not true or I dreamt it but thought it was a funny anecdote to add . To be fair McGovern had spent basically all his career in England and mostly playing for Brian Clough I think.
Sorry, I read the original text again and I think it was clear and I just mis-interpreted as I scanned through and then replied from memory of what I thought I'd read! Anyway, I take it that Murdoch was both a very good passer and goalscorer.
That most definitely does sound like Ally MacLeod. Murdoch had it all. He was a gifted passer. Good, clean striker of the ball hence why he had a decent scoring record and he was 2 footed. Inter's manager in '67, Herrera said of Murdoch - "Bobby Murdoch is my complete footballer." "As far as I'm concerned, Bobby Murdoch was just about the best player I had as manager." Jock Stein This is what Hugh McIlvanney (a great sportswriter) wrote about Murdoch after his death - Driving heart of the Lions - Football Sunday Times, The (London, England) May 20, 2001 Author: Hugh McIlvanney Bobby Murdoch was as unassuming off the pitch as he was influential on it in Celtic's greatest victory. Those of us with fresh memories of Bobby Murdoch's career feel a duty to celebrate his greatness as a football player. Sport rarely gives posterity much of a basis for sound judgments. An artist or a bricklayer leaves lasting, assessable evidence of his abilities but expressing high talent through the playing of games can be like trying to carve a mark on running water. That is particularly true of football, where even the most ordinary match amounts to a complex ebb and flow of influences, and a permanent record of a performer's effectiveness is obviously far more elusive than it is, say, amid the teeming statistics of track and field or cricket or golf. Clearly, technical advances in camerawork make the growing film archive increasingly helpful in preserving a sense of how special footballers of earlier eras were. Diego Maradona's surge through the England defence for the goal of goals at the 1986 World Cup finals is nearly as breathtaking for a television audience now as it was for all of us who were in the Aztec Stadium on the day -nearly but not quite. The game is live theatre and, grateful though we are for television's admirable substitute, much is lost when we have to settle for images on a screen. To be fully savoured, football's supreme moments must be first-hand experiences, and its greatest players can be truly understood and appreciated only as flesh-and-blood presences. They are best appreciated, of course, by the men who were closest to them while they were operating at the height of their powers, by their fellow players and the managers who sent them on to the field. To gauge Bobby Murdoch's status in the crowded ranks of the outstanding midfielders Scotland has produced in the century and more since football became professional, don't look at the insulting total of 12 caps gained. Listen, instead, to the voices of those who were his comrades, and his opponents, in his prime. Jock Stein's opinion of him would be enough on its own to remove any doubt about his right to be considered genuinely great. Whenever the Big Man, as inspired a manager as ever worked in the game, talked to me about Celtic's historic success in the European Cup of 1967, he was eager to acknowledge that Murdoch was the most comprehensively gifted player in the lavishly talented team assembled from Glasgow and its environs (Bobby Lennox came from Saltcoats, 30 miles away on the Ayrshire coast, which hardly rendered the overall proximity of origins less miraculous). Stein did not dispense such distinctions lightly and the tribute retained all of its significance after his death in 1985 at the age of 62, six years older than Murdoch was when he succumbed last Tuesday to the effects of a massive stroke. There was an impressive range of qualities to justify the praise. Most of the strengths had been sufficiently discernible at Our Lady's High School in Motherwell (also responsible for nurturing Billy McNeill, the inspirational captain of the European Cup-winners who went into legend as the Lisbon Lions) to persuade Celtic to sign Murdoch almost as soon as he turned 15. He confirmed his promise with a scoring debut in the first team six days short of his 18th birthday in August 1962, but it was when Stein launched his unparalleled reign as manager in March 1965 that the young prospect raised in Rutherglen, a few miles from Parkhead, began to accelerate towards the standards which contributed so much to the glories of 1967 and beyond. Crucial to that swift development was Stein's characteristically astute decision to alter Murdoch's function, switching him, in the terminology of the day, from inside-right to right-half. Having withdrawn Bertie Auld from outside-left to a deeper role in midfield, the manager was doubly guaranteeing himself verve, combativeness and rich creativity in the vital central areas of the pitch. There was balance, too, with Auld's inventive and precise application of a marvellous left foot frequently prompting Celtic's most dazzling attackers, Jimmy Johnstone and Lennox, to torture the opposition. But Murdoch was the driving heart of a magnificent team. Everybody around him recognised that reality, and thrived on it. The warmth and profound modesty of his nature made it easy for his teammates to accept him wholeheartedly as first among equals, the best footballer in their midst. Jim Craig, right-back of the Lions, spoke for all of them when he said last week: "When Bobby Murdoch played the whole Celtic team played." Murdoch had all the equipment needed to exert such an influence. Broad and powerful in build, he was unfazed by any physical confrontation. Whether relying on jarringly effective tackles or deft dispossessing techniques based on his alert, intelligent reading of the play, he was a prodigious winner of the ball. But it was his use of it that set him apart. Assured control, superb passing and fierce shooting were attributes he had in abundance. He was wonderfully two-footed, and what he did with either weapon had the stamp of class. That versatility was a godsend throughout a career complicated by the chronic problems inflicted on his right ankle by a serious injury suffered in his teens. The depth of his unostentatious courage is demonstrated by the story of how he made his heroic contribution against Internazionale of Milan in Lisbon while nursing the ravaged ankle and depending almost entirely on his left foot -and even more by the fact that he didn't bother to mention his adversity in public until years later, and then only in casual conversation. Of all the formidable components of his game, however, the most telling, and certainly the one Stein cherished above all others, was his capacity to deliver the ball over long or short distances, with speed and accuracy and unfailing economy, into the places where it could do maximum damage to the opposition. It is hard to think of a midfielder who identified the points of vulnerability more perceptively or exploited them more ruthlessly than he did. In football terms, he was the delivery-man from heaven. His haul of trophies -with Celtic he figured in the winning of eight Scottish League championships, four Scottish Cups, five League cups and the European Cup, and in his twilight phase at Middlesbrough he helped the Teesside club to the English Second Division title -is all the more extraordinary when we remember that, in addition to his injuries, he was constantly plagued by weight troubles associated with a slow metabolic rate. It was a dire affliction for a professional sportsman but, like everything connected with Stein's Celtic, it could be material for banter. "We send Murdoch down to the health farm at Tring to lose some weight," the manager once said to me, "and the main result is that we are polluted with bad tips from the wee jockeys he meets there." As Bobby Murdoch was buried on Friday, the grieving of the wife, children and grand-children with whom he was so lovingly close was respectfully echoed by the mourning of a football club who still like to think of themselves as an extended family. Celtic never lost a more distinguished son.
Thanks again Fraser - according to that write-up maybe Murdoch himself wouldn't be out of place with a vote or two on this thread! One thing I did realise I think is that it was Lennox you talked to comme about before and not Murdoch. It's hard for me to remember and get familiar with players from just the one 90 minute viewing (the European Cup Final vs Inter of course - great performance from Celtic that was btw, really positive and taking the game to the opposition with even full-backs like Gemmell getting forward to great effect, and a very good short passing game on display I remember). McLeod does get a bit of stick about some of his decisons and comments (also mentioned in History Group IIRC) but I think a lot of it is down to the claims Scotland would win the World Cup (I suppose it worked the other way for Alf Ramsey in '66, or for Clough indeed claiming Forest would win the League within a few years I think though he actually did it sooner and then added European Cups which he hadn't predicted). It seems the height of Ally's popularity would've been when Scotland won at Wembley, then his name was being 'celebrated' in Pop songs before the World Cup! I'm not sure I can say that McGovern would've displaced Rioch or Hartford for example in the Scotland team but perhaps he would at least have been in the squad if the story is correct.
That's entirely up to you mate. He also had a profound influence on Graeme Souness's career. He (Murdoch) took a young Souness under his wing at Middlesbrough and mentored him. Thanks. Yes, it was an excellent performance and a thoroughly deserved victory, even if I do say so myself. That was the norm for Tommy Gemmell. He always was very attack minded. An excellent attacking left back who again is often overlooked in preference to Brazilians and other Europeans such as Brietner for example. I'm not saying he was better than him but he certainly doesn't deserve to be so far off the radar as he seems to be to many observers. "We're on the march with Ally's army. We're going to the Argentine. And we'll really shake them up. When we lift the World Cup. 'Cause Scotland are the greatest football team." Yep. Still remember the words. Yeah. The triumvate of Rioch, Hartford and Masson may have been quite hard to break into at the '78 World Cup.
Sorry, I didn't mean I was thinking of putting him in my top 50 or longer list off the back of the write-up, but just that judging by it he wouldn't be a ridiculous inclusion. A bit like (though I'm more familiar with him of course) IMO Archie Gemmill would be a defensible inclusion in maybe a top 100 at least even if a bit surprising. I could be misguided and I'm not sure what you think but probably along with/after Jinky Johnstone and Alan Hansen, Archie might be among the next Scots on my mind to list. I'd have to look into Murdoch a lot more if I was to try and place him though. Maybe Murdoch was an influence on a young Tony Mowbray then as I remember him talking about the Middlesbrough side in that era as well as the Brazil side from 1970 that he says influences his preferred style of play as manager. Yeah I remember Gemmell was in one of your draft teams as well (I think unlike McGrain he hasn't been in another drafter's as of yet but could be remembering wrong). He was also on comme's top 100 left-backs list I remember (about 50th IIRC?). Perhaps with full-backs a few get picked out as being among the all-time world-class players but others are not necessarily far behind them in capability. I suppose Breitner playing so well as a midfielder helps his case as well as the fact he was playing for major trophy winners (Gemmell did that in 1967 though of course!) Yeah great song You're probably right about McGovern not breaking into the side, although as I've mentioned on the face of it I'd have played with wingers including Robertson on the left (he did play against Iran but was unhappy with his performance I read; he then played all games in the 1982 World Cup and scored a free-kick) so wouldn't have picked all of Rioch, Hartford and Masson. By the time of the Holland-Scotland game which is the one I've seen 4 central midfielders/general midfielders were playing - Archie of course and Souness along with Rioch and Hartford. Masson had been banned though hadn't he so wasn't in contention - my mate who supports Notts County (the one who took part in one Sheep Draft as well as the Auction Draft and voted your team with Jimmy Johnstone in 3rd btw) mentions Masson as one of County's best ever players and he also starred for QPR IIRC.
MacLeod was proven to be way out of his depth. But he did have Willie Johnstone in the squad and he was one of the few players to perform to a reasonable level against Peru. He could have been the catalyst for the 2nd match against Iran but, of course, he failed a drugs test and was sent home in shame. Neither Masson nor Rioch performed particularly well in that tournament. Masson's performances were tarnished further by missing a penalty against Peru that could have changed the course of that match. The introduction of Souness for the final match was the springboard for us to produce a much more composed, controlled display of football, which we required much earlier in the competition unfortunately. I knew he was a star performer for QPR when they came close to winning a league title but I didn't know how fondly he was remembered at Notts County. I'd imagine McGovern must have been looking on from home and wondering why he hadn't at least made the squad, especially when watching the displays against Peru and Iran. Scotland's selection policy for international squads has always been highly questionable imo.
Don't want to spoil your conversation but I see what PDG means with that it is hard to get a picture of all those Celtic players. That also leads to that you forget them. However, Johnstone indeed received a lot of praise regularly and the ones who played against both Johnstone and George Best have confessed that there was not much difference between both. Celtic played the 1970 final against Feyenoord of course and Israel, Van Hanegem have mentioned how good he was and even compared his abilities with Cruyff although they added that Cruyff was the complete package who could play as libero etcetera, but what stands out to me is that quite a few Feyenoord players of that time (who also played with the NT against Johnstone) emphasized how good he was. I looked it up and Van Hanegem his opinion was that George Best had more flair and was more of a goal threat obviously but that Johnstone was equally talented with the ball at his feet. If you see videos like this or full matches then I don't quite get how Garrincha is seen as the best dribbler of all time while he as contemporary is generally not in the debate but that's my (maybe wrong) opinion.