Ballon D'Or 2012 (part 2)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Source?
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Point is that Barcelona or Spain does get the call in similar situations.
     
  3. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Really? Messi seems to have dropped off quite substantially actually in some of his best areas.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Therefore it is good to realize this and not hide your bias. Not pretend neutrality.

    Still, some things can be explained in either way. Pipiolo - OK, not a representative example - accused me of rating players too low because they beat the Netherlands but a few days later he turned it around: I rated some players (too) high because of their performance against 'my' team.

    Similarly, Messi is Argentinian but also Spanish. Should I hate him because he is Spanish and because I have a dislike against Spain or am I neutral in this respect?

    I mean: biases do not always inform opinion and biases can sometimes be explained in both ways.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Dribbling and speed maybe but shooting, passing and free kick taking is improved.

    He changed his game a bit with the years, also last year he played different as in the seasons before but overall he became better.
     
    zahzah repped this.
  6. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Song should have been sent off - everyone with any unbiased thinking agrees (including several guys on the Barca forum). Mascherano is debatable, but claiming the foul didn't exist is pretty far fetched. I can't find the situation on a replay, so:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-celtic-score-a-famous-victory-over-barcelona

    "The crowd were now in raptures and it so easily could have gotten even better for Celtic minutes later when Watt again burst past Mascherano who seemed to pull him back. Rather than award a foul and a certain red card, referee Kuipers allowed play to continue."

    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/champions-league/2012-2013/celtic-fc-barcelona-519089.html

    "Mascherano seemed to have fouled Watt as he dashed through the middle. Referee said no. Looked to be the wrong decision."

    And this one is coming from the Barca camp:
    http://barcacentral.com/2012/11/08/celtic-fc-2-fc-barcelona-1/

    "However, it could have got worse soon after when Watt again looked quicker than Mascherano who might have been sent off as the last defender after tugging at Watt’s sleeve, though the forward’s exaggerated fall may have influenced the ref’s decision to wave play on. "
     
  7. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    His dribbling isn't worsened, nor is his speed. Last season he actually did some of his best dribbles ever. Nowadays he just chooses more closely the situations when to dribble, and when to pass. Which just tells how his footballing intelligence is developing.
     
  8. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Not more than anyone else. Madrid's opponents last season received many more red cards than Barca opponents, for instance.
     
  9. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Messi is breaking records like every game he plays, which just tells how amazing season/year he's having:

    - Against Celtic Messi became the player with most CL away goals in history, 25.

    - With 23 internationals goals with club and country in 2012, Messi is 2 goals away from all-time record of Englishman Vivian Woodward in 1909.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Can you show it?
     
  11. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Honestly at the moment the only thing between the two teams is the amount of preferential calls the given side gets. Last year RM benefitted most and - viola - the title. This year its Barca and...
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Madrid is indeed also a side that receives in their own league a lot of favorable calls. Not sure about Champions League though.
    Anyhow, do you have a source for this?

    As example of a similar situation that ended in a call in favor of a Barcelona player I mentioned Iniesta in the 2010WC final.
     
  13. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Just watch his touches in the last, its unreal how perfect they are, just keeping the ball away from others.
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Source ? The American feed on Fox Soccer Channel. FFS Puck, why would I make this up ?
     
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I used this page for Barcelona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_FC_Barcelona_season

    ... and then the similar Wiki page for Real Madrid.

    Overall Barca's opponents received a few more red cards in La Liga than Barca themselves, but it wasn't lopsided (difference was about +5 IIRC).

    The thing haters overlook is the fact that Barca (and Real Madrid) should get less reds and yellows than their opponents because their opponents are mostly on the defensive. Also some will choose to play more physical as a tactic to slow down Barca/Madrid. If Barca/Madrid are winning then their opponents are likely to be more frustrated and tired towards the end of the match. If Barca/Madrid are losing or tied, their opponents will likely try to time waste. All these factors suggest that Barca/Madrid's opponents will get more bookings even if the refereeing is totally fair.

    Yes, that red card came from nothing. It's not like Holland were excessively fouling all match. :rolleyes:
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Barcelona, Madrid and Spain also get favourable calls on the defensive. I remember multiple Ramos handballs, two or three times in the same match, from last season. That was really horrible to see. That was in his own penalty area. Something similar happened a few times in the Croatia match in euro2012.

    On the offensive the same things happen such as that handball of Barcelona against Sevilla in this season, in front of the referee his eyes, that leaded to a crucial goal.

    Even of you believe that Spain did not excessively foul, a referee should judge every instance separately. Three borderline fouls that aren't deemed as a call does not add up to a yellow or a red.
    This is really a nonsensical argument.

    You had a good point with this:
    That is indeed how it usually works or used to work before the art of defending became diluted.

    What I did was pointing out that similar situations went in the favour of Barcelona/Madrid/Spain.
    Such as vs Milan or Iniesta in 2010WC final.

    I have to come back to this. A while ago you defended this with 'every football team is using drugs'. But now you shifted to another defence and that is accusing the other of fantasizing 'doping rumours' and/or strong 'circumstantial evidence'.

    Both isn't correct of course. The Spanish minister of sports himself has admitted that Spanish sports has "serious drug problem". And until recently they even hadn't an anti-drugs law (fact!) and hadn't signed international treaties and protocols. That lack of anti-drugs law is btw also the reason why the current investigations will in any case not lead to sanctions because it has no legal basis (fact!).

    And the other rebuttal of 'everyone is using drugs' is also problematic because some footballers do and did receive a punishment like Kolo Toure. It is not like that everyone is free to use and the anti-drug stipulations are a dead letter; in some cases it does lead to serious sanctions.
    That is why the current so called 'grey area' in football is very dangerous from a level playing field perspective.

    Just to enlighten this.
     
  17. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    When considering if a team is getting favorable calls, you have to look at the bigger picture, not just point to specific incidents (since every team gets favorable calls here and there).
    In the case of the WC final, all things considered, Holland were fortunate to have only played a man down for about 10 minutes. Could've been more like 85 minutes.

    You remember the hand ball in the Sevilla game because Barca came back and won. People forget the BS red card on Mascherano in the Deportivo game because Barca still scored and won with 10 men, so it didn't affect the outcome.
     
  18. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    There have been specualtions about druge use in Spanish football. In 2010, sports doctor Eufemiano Fuentes said "If I talk, Spain will be stripped of the WC title". http://www.sudinfo.be/sports/foot_i...re-la-coupe-du-monde-a-l-espagne-831186.shtml

    I don't know much about drug use in football, but I remember the 90s, when Juventus was using industrial quantities of drugs. Already in 1998, the notice that Juventus had hired Argentinian Guillermo Laich and Dutch Henck Kraaijenhof - considered two of the world's greatest experts in the doping business - , reached some journalists to the big embarassment of Juve. I also remember matches where the opponents talked about creepy feelings they had during matches vs Juventus: that they acted like machines, never seemed to get tired etc etc. Also the normal fan often asked himself how the "Zebras" could keep that tempo, match after match, from the first till the last minute.

    Personally, I have never got the same feeling watching the Spanish NT or club sides and I haven't heard opponents or reporters comment on strange indefatigability. Speculations seem to start from the consideration that Barsa/Spain have won "too much" in recent years, and that there must be some arcane behind it all. But if that's the case, why dont they get caught?
     
  19. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    I think it was Davie Provan (former Celtic player for what it's worth) on Sky who took one look at the replay and dismissed it. Don't have a link, however.
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That was against Betis to be precise, the multiple handball incidents.

    http://www.insidespanishfootball.com/real-madrid-admit-handball-incidents/
     
  21. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Big teams getting favourable calls is and has always been a part of the game in Southern Europe, also long before Calciopoli or Kokkalis becoming president of Olympiakos (winning 12 league titles in 18 years). Glenn Strömberg, the Atalanta captain and midfielder (1984-92), when commenting Italian matches often repeats: "It's impossible for a provincial team to get a fair treatments from referees. Some penalties just won't be given and some red cards won't be shown".

    José Mourinho is the product of that culture and mentality, and that's where his paranoias have their origin.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The best doping anecdote I've ever heard is that the third GK of 1990s Parma had a HCT level of 63%. That is insanely high and even dangerous. Cyclist Bjarne Riis had once a similar level and at that level someone's blood becomes very dense. Hence, someone of his team had to monitor him during his sleep.
    As comparison: cycling (and many other sports) do not allow a level higher as 50%. You're immediately banned if you transgress the limit. Precisely because you are playing with your life at that level.
     
  23. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Didier Deschamps (and Di Livio?) was well above 50%.

    There were lots of strange things going on in Juventus in those years. So many of their players won the WC title in 1998 and 2006, and Marcello Lippi was Italy's coach in 2006, of course. They gained so much goodwill from those titles that people would have forgiven them anything. Why did they never talk about the praxis in the club when Agricola was the club doctor and Moggi direttore sportivo? Will we have to wait until they're 90 and writing their memoires and the information has become useless?
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Regarding the quality of past eras, I saw today extended highlights of this game on television:



    A decent game with a good amount of entertaining moments. Esp. the goal was special. Van Basten makes a good flick to his team-mate and 20 seconds later Baggio scores a goal. Two superb moments of the two great players within less than 30 seconds, from one side of the field to the other one....
     
  25. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Give me examples! In which of his best areas has Messi dropped off "quite substantially"? Because I can tell you in which areas he has improved - shooting and FKs.

    BTW, I can easily say that Ronaldo has dropped off in some of his previously strong areas - dribbling and FKs.;)

    Can you read? I said that IMO also Song was spared a second yellow. But that is because the referee had already established the tone of giving/spearing yellow cards for both sides. He had speared a couple of yellow cards to Celtic players already.

    Regarding Mascherano's situation, I concur with Celito that the commentators (one of them Scottish) on the US broadcast of Fox Soccer Channel both concluded that it was the right call not to award a FK and subsequent red card for Mascherano.

    Opinions will vary as you've shown. The little tug on the sleeve was very marginal and hidden from the referee's point of view. It could be seen only on replay and when the camera is on the opposite side of the referee's view. Plus the tug was not substantial to the Celtic player's (young Watt) fall. And as the last quote in your post points out, the fall was exaggerated.
     

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