Throwing a match

Discussion in 'Referee' started by NW Referee, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    ESPN would LOVE this format because Skip Sayless, Screamin A. Smith, Colin Cowturd, and Jim Rome would be employed for life with the endless plot points of this format.
     
    La Rikardo repped this.
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Um... It's non sequitur. :)
     
  3. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    Well now. Isn't that elegant? Simply give each and every first place team the right to choose whether they wish to keep their first place rank or swap with #2. Of course, all groups would have to choose simultaneously and in secret. But at least the choice is in the hands of the winners.
     
  4. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Barbados-Grenada, 1994 Caribbean Cup qualification:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados_v_Grenada_(1994)

    Barbados needed to either win by two goals, or draw in regulation and win in sudden-death extra time. Grenada needed to either lose in regulation by only one goal, draw, or win.

    Everything was fine until Grenada scored in the 83rd minute to cut Barbados's lead to 2-1; Barbados, despairing of breaking down Grenada in the time remaining, scored into their own goal in the 87th minute to draw 2-2; for the rest of the second half, Grenada frantically tried to score into either goal, but Barbados successfully defended both goals. Barbados went on to score in extra time and thus advance.
     
    IASocFan repped this.
  5. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Sure, or you could apply tiebreakers to the group winners and allow, say, A1 (winning the tiebreaker over B1) to choose B1 or B2. D1 (winning the tiebreaker over C1) would choose C1 or C2.

    Later knockout rounds can either be left to chance, or similarly chosen.
     
  6. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    I was kind of hoping Cameroon had engineered an own goal at 90+1 yesterday. They would have done a service to soccer.
     
  7. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    I can't stop laughing at this. Defending both ends of the goal is quite a comedy skit.
     
  8. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Let me ask a crazy question. Why is purposefully losing a match for reasons other than to benefit gamblers inherently a problem?

    The goal here is to win the tournament. If losing the game advances the team towards winning the tournament, isn't that what they should be doing? And if that's the case, isn't winning the game throwing the tournament?
     
    Jasonma repped this.
  9. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    One note that I haven't seen widely reported: The pairs that were disqualified were A1, A2, C1, and C2. Thus the quarterfinals were A3-C4, B1-D2, A4-C3, B2-D1. Thus two of the four semifinalists originally failed to advance from their group (before the disqualifications). Thus someone is backing into at least a bronze medal.

    One mystery I haven't seen explained: I understand why C1 and C2 were both trying to lose their match and avoid A2. What I don't understand is why A1 and A2 were both trying to lose their match and avoid C2 before they knew who C2 would be.
     
  10. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    My understanding is that A2 is/was one of the Chinese teams and by losing they avoiding meeting the other Chinese team before the gold medal match.
     
  11. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Because it is match fixing one way or the other. It doesn't matter. I could call up those Chinese badminton and say look, you should lose anyway because it will strengthen your draw and there is 100k in for you if you do this. This lack of scrutiny is ripe for gambling improprieties.
     
  12. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    You have succinctly summarized the position that the editor of The Bridge World repeatedly expresses in his editorials: if so-called sportsmanlike dumping is even possible, it is the fault of the tournament organizers for placing players in those situations, and the sportsmanlike behavior is in fact to lose intentionally.
     
  13. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    But in this case, winning the match is as much match fixing as losing it. Win the match and you've fixed the tournament.
     
  14. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Yes -- but the other Chinese team, who ended up as C2 by dumping their match, could have simply, you know, won their match if the first Chinese team had ended up as A1.

    Although writing that response makes me realize that your explanation suffices: China A losing the group-A match, which occurred earlier, meant that China C could lose the group-C match, which occurred later. Were China A to have won the group-A match, China C would have needed to win the group-C match, which is harder than intentionally losing the group-C match.

    It's really quite ridiculous, though: the two China teams, who were both seeded, could have avoided each other just by winning matches in which they were each the favorites.
     
  15. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    You are supposed to intentionally win the game, no matter if you are the higher seed or the lower seed. You are not fixing the game if you are intentionally trying to win. However, intentionally sandbagging is nothing more than simply fixing the tournament. You think your local golf course appreciates your 95 score when you have a 2 handicap and the local qualifier is the next week? Intentionally losing is much easier to achieve than to intentionally win.
     
  16. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    The explanation I read is:

    (Mark Purdy- San Jose mercury news.)
     
  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    That's the one I was thinking about. The specific problem was a tournament rule that counted "golden goals" as 2 goals for purpose of goal differential . . . I never have understood what could possibly have compelled someone to think that a 1-0 win in overtime should be considered a better result than a 1-0 result in regular time. This was clearly a case of an ill-coccieved rule create wierd incentives.
     
  18. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Well, they won't have a medal to show for it so I guess the patriotic deed backfired badly. As stories of this are popping up, it seems like there were a lot of accusations that Chinese are notorious for fixing tourneys to their advantage. Who knows how sour the grapes are or whose back hasn't been scratched properly?
     
  19. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    At £100 a pop for tickets?

    Who indeed.

    Previous to these Olympics, it was straight single elim, as one chinese player pointed out.
     
  20. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I would argue that you are supposed to win the tournament. Any particular match is just a part of a tournament.

    Do we get upset if a player decides not to fully sprint on any particular attack so long as he is legitimately playing to win match? After all, he is supposed to be trying to score and he's decided to "fix" that attack and not score. No, we don't, because we understand that the attack isn't the important unit of competition. I would argue that the important unit of competition here is the tournament not the match.

    What the Chinese team did is still wrong under this theory as their offense is collusion to improve another team's finish.

    (I'm not a golfer, so your analogy is way over my head.)
     
  21. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Everyone on the comments of the newsites keep bringing up Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps toning it down to conserve energy in the heats. However, Phelps and Bolt are winning their heats because they want to control their own lane assignments, which is so vital in winning the whole thing. There is no incentive to lose in track or swimming heats. So it is a poor example to use. Collusion is match fixing and match fixing often requires collusion. It is up to the sporting authorities to tolerate it or not.
     
  22. Lucky Wilbury

    Lucky Wilbury Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    United States
    I can back up your story 100%. It was 2006. Craziest thing I ever saw. The other 2 teams from that same age group were playing on the next field over. A dad from that field got so upset that he ran on their field and yelled at the players. He quickly realized what he did and just froze for a moment. He was escorted out of the complex, to state the obvious.


    Separately, the time I ran across with 'throwing a match' was a U13G Semi-Final at our State Cup about 7 years ago. The club had two teams in the Semi, their A and B team. The B team was ahead 1-0 and looked like they were going to win. I was AR1 and the dialogue burned in my brain is as follows:
    A coach to the B coach: Hey, what are you doing?
    B coach: Sorry, man. What do you want me to do?
    A coach: Figure something out!
    B coach: I'll push Jenny up top and that will clear up the middle for you a lot
    A coach: Fine, but figure something out

    The B coach put his girl up top, cleared out the middle, and the A team put in two goals in the last 20 minutes or so, primarily dominating the obviously open gap in the middle of a 13G midfield. It was triple-digits on Memorial Day weekend and I was furious that we would have to be part of that "game" when the outcome was arranged. Afterward, the parents for the B team that we walked past were so happy they almost won that it was pathetic. Looking back, I'm mad because I didn't tell the parents of the B team. I did light up the State Youth President, the SYRA, and made it known to the entire referee tent that this happened. I completely lost respect for these two coaches and will not forget that experience for a very long time.
     
  23. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Something like this "kinda" happened in High School this past year in a state I won't mention, and even though people deny it happened, I heard about it from someone who did work the game. Two teams playing the last game of the season, one team already in the playoffs (team A) the other out of it(team B). Team A if they had won or tied, would have faced the state champs from last year in their first round playoff match. No score match, with 5 minutes left to go, Team A goalie makes a save. Coach A yells at the goalie to "throw it in." Goalie throws the ball into his own net. Team B wins 1-0. Team A ends up playing an easier opponent the first round.
     
  24. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Phelps hasn't won much of anything, heats included. Swimmers are a great example though. They don't necessarily try to win each heat. They just want to be in the top 3 or so so they will advance. Again, the point is to win the gold, not each race/match.
     
  25. ciaburrj

    ciaburrj New Member

    Sep 21, 2011
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Swimmers aren't a good example. They might not be competing at top performance, but they aren't just throwing in the towel. There are more than three people racing forcing them to still compete.
    It also comes down to a single elimination vs. round robin/group play. This is essentially single elimination, you lose and you're done.

    One thing that irks me is why they added this round robin style. The single elimination seemed to work well in the past, why change it. Money?
     

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