Copa Libertadores 2012 - Octavos [R]

Discussion in 'Copa Libertadores / Sudamericana' started by Suyuntuy, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
  2. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    una vez mas- los intereses de TV mandan!!

    en cada confederacion....
     
  3. SoccerScout

    SoccerScout Member

    Jan 3, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    Internacional Porto Alegre
    Thanks for pointing that out hadnt realized how weak Flus offense was. 7 gols got them to the top of the 16. Wow. Pretty weak. But thanks that got me inspired for a post at Blog Vermelho.

    PS: and many didn't emerge as champions.
     
  4. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It's their home scoring record that is abysmal, especially considering the relative weakness of the competition, other than Boca.

    vs Zamora: 1 goal
    vs Arsenal: 1 goal
    vs Boca: 0 goal

    It's surprising because watching them play it does seem like they are dangerous offensively and their weakness is on defense. But the stats seem to contradict that impression.
     
  5. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    A team which did emerge as champion witnessed its offensive production actually fall from the group stage to the mata-mata. In 2011, Santos scored 11 goals over six matches in the group stage: an average of 1.83 In the 8 knockout stage games, Santos scored 9 goals - an average of 1.13.

    Now, if Fluminense's offense drops further - say, they score 1 goal in every round from now on to the final, and never get scored on - they'll win it all. A pretty heartwrenching way to win the title, but hey, it works - that is exactly how the Spaniards became World Cup champions.

    Furthermore, there is no guarantee Fluminense's offense will remain modest - it may very well increase. In fact, looking back at the mata-mata scoring records of the Libertadores champions between 1999 and 2011, that has been the case most of the time.

    The following list shows such cases in bold. The numbers after the club name are for group stage goals and mata-mata goals.

    2011 Santos: 11 - 9
    2010 Internacional: 8 - 12
    2009 Estudantes: 9 - 10
    2008 Liga de Quito: 8 -11
    2007 Boca: 11 - 16
    2006 Internacional: 13 - 11
    2005 São Paulo: 16 - 18
    2004 Once Caldas: 11 - 6
    2003 Boca: 10 - 9
    2002 Olimpia: 8 - 11
    2001 Boca: 7 - 13
    2000 Boca: 14 - 15

    1999 Palmeiras: 12 – 12

    Boca’s 2001 campaign shows a near doubling of offense from group to knockout stages. Internacional and Liga de Quito scored a “mere” 8 goals in 2010 and 2008 respectively, which is only one more than Fluminense’s 7 goals this year. Both teams upped their output and went on to win the Libertadores. Estudantes went from 9 to 10, and São Paulo had the most prolific scoring of all these previous champions: 16 goals in the opening round and 18 in the final round.

    Interestingly, your team's offense went down in the 1st time it won the Copa. Once Caldas was known for playing highly offensively the entire tournament. Boca was pretty constant in 2000 and in 2003, and Palmeiras scored 12 goals in both the opening round and the mata-mata.

    Of course, there is no guarantee Fluminense will now start scoring goals at will; they may lose to your team by two goleadas. But all this proves my point: a meager offensive record in the group stages does not always continue when the knockout stage starts. And in some cases it may go down, while remaining sufficient for a team to... emerge as champion.
     
  6. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Correct; they haven't scored much at home. But as I wrote just now, their offense MAY go up - if they do follow the pattern of previous champions, their offense may go up.
     
  7. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Can anyone go in depth about how teams prepare to play in boliva and in other extreme altidude?
     
  8. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Sure.

    There is two game plans, one, you come in as close to kick off time as possible.


    Second, you get there a week or 2 before your game and take that time to acimilate(sp) to the altitude.

    Also I just read that Santos will be flying in to Santa Cruz (which has no altitude) and will leave there with only a couple of hours to kick off to La Paz.


    Also, I don't want to hear crap about Altitude. Pele scored this killer of a goal when they thrashed Bolivar back in the day 5-0 I believe.

    Altitude existed back then believe it or not..

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvo5rJAFtZw"]El mejor gol de Pelé en La Paz Bolivia - YouTube[/ame]
     
  9. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    True, but back then there was such a huge difference in talent between Santos and Bolivar, that even the altitude was not enough to affect the outcome.

    The results from 2005 are probably more significant:

    At Santos: Santos 6 bolivar 0
    At Bolivar: Bolivar 4 Santos 3

    I think the altitude was a factor in this case.
     
  10. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I agree, altitude is a factor..... but not more so than the crazy mental aspect that a scary home stadium can do, or the heat/humidity in colombia or brasil.


    I think mentally has alot to do with altitude too.

    If altitude was such a game changer, we wouldn't have lost at home vs. Union Espanola who IMO isn't all that.

    Same goes with Junior scaring us very very much with their chances vs. us in La Paz.

    All I'm saying is it's a factor.... but nothing more than the ones other teams have when playing at home.
     
  11. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Santos will return to Brazil quite pleased if they score 3 goals there again, given that goals scored in the opponent's stadium is a factor in tiebreakers. I respect this Bolivar side, but I have Santos advancing. Unlike you, I have Nacional ousting Velez, but we'll see.
     
  12. posteador

    posteador Member+

    Dec 29, 2006
    Lincoln, UK
    Golazo... gracias por el aporte. No había visto ese gol.
     
  13. HeartandSoul

    HeartandSoul Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2007
    The Garden State
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    You should respect Union Española more. They have beaten your side quite a few times in the Libertadores over the last couple of years.

    Chilean teams are also no stranger to playing in altitude. Nothing in comparison to La Paz, but the Chilean league has two teams that play in stadiums of over 7400 feet.
     
  14. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    No, that's not to take anything away from Union! Had that game gone different, we'd be up 2-0 in the first half. Union countered perfect... and made us pay.

    Like you said, in Chile teams know how to 'deal' with the altitude... IMO the way they deal is more 'mental' than physical. It isn't as much a mental factor as it is for teams in brasil or argentina.

    Thats why Chile always is able to take points away from our NT at home too. Remember how they ran circles around bolivia in 2009 or 08'? I believe? They won 2-0 in la paz I believe.

    IMO, Altura is more mental than physical. I'd put it right there with humidity and heat being factors.
     
  15. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    A few more stats to consider when Fluminense visits Internacional for what will be a brutally competitive match:

    - Internacional, who during this Libertadores has played beneath its potential, may find encouragement in its recent defensive performance: it received only 3 goals in the last 10 matches.
    - Fluminense has a five-game unbeaten streak against Internacional. The Rio the Janeiro side hasn't lost to the Colorados since 2009, in a 4-2 defeat. Since then, 3 Fluminense wins and two draws.
    - In the 2012 Libertadores, Fluminense has won all its 3 away games. A draw wouldn't be a wholly bad result, as long as it's not a goalless draw.
    - D'Alessandro is out (for a month) with a thigh injury. Fluminense will not have Wellington Nem, the fast striker whose quick dribble led to Flu's first goal in La Bombonera.
     
  16. ElGuapo

    ElGuapo New Member

    Jul 23, 2006
    MN
    Re: Copa Libertadores 2012 [R]

    My predictions:

    Flu over Inter
    Boca over Union Española
    Deportivo Quito over U de chile
    Libertad over Cruz Azul
    Corinthians over Emelec
    Vasco over Lanus
    Santos over Bolivar
    Atletico Nacional over Velez
     
  17. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah, that little guy was impressive at La Bombonera. He showed flashes of greatness. Does he usually play well, and is he considered a promising prospect overall?

    I think Flu is most dangerous when their fullbacks open the field. Inter needs to control the fullbacks. If they have to play through the middle they become more predictable.

    Not having D'alessandro is a big loss though.
     
  18. Arthur V

    Arthur V Member

    Dec 29, 2008
    Brasilia, BRASIL
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I'm back.

    just to say that I dont want brazilians winning. Specially corinthians (of course).


    My predictions:

    Flu over Inter
    Boca over Union Española
    la U over Deportivo Quito
    Libertad over Cruz Azul
    Emelec over corinthians
    Vasco over Lanus
    Santos over Bolivar
    Atletico Nacional over Velez


    Peñarol and Nacional (URU) are out (I was rooting for them, specially Peñarol). Now I'm rooting for la U or Atletico Nacional.

    Beware, São Paulo is coming back next year.(I hope so).
     
  19. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    He's been doing well; he's skillful, in addition to simply being quick. And yes, he is very much a promising prospect. He's more of an attacking midfielder who plays as "segundo atacante" and he shined with Figueirense in the 2011 Brasileirão, with 9 goals and several assists, and he won the Revelação award for that tournament (one of several prizes awarded to the best of the best of each Brasileirão in a partnership between Rede Globo and CBF; a coterie of players, coaches, journalists, and former playres vote and elect the winner of each category).

    Wellington Nem is 20 years old and therefore eligible for Olympic play - and he has been pre-selected by Mano Menezes for Brazil's London team.

    As for Internacional, D'alessandro's absence is a problem, but he has been absent other times this year, and Dátolo, who has performed very well since his first match w/ Internacional, has often compensated for D'alessandro's unavailability.
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    El Siles está que arde!
     
  21. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I guess the problem is having Datolo take the penalties. :D
     
  22. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Dátolo is a former player of Boca, though, isn’t he? :D

    Dorival Júnior wanted Nei to take the PK, but Dátolo went for it. This hasty decision may later haunt Internacional.
     
  23. JAIME CHILE

    JAIME CHILE Member+

    Apr 26, 2006
    V.Alemana y Stgo
    Club:
    Cobreloa Calama
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    8ºs de final, ida (anoche):

    Bolívar(BOL)-Santos 2:1
    Autogol del arquero Rafael por rebote(B), Maranhao(S) y Jhasmani Campos(B).

    Internacional(BRA)-Fluminense(BRA) 0:0
    (Cavalieri le atajó un penal a Dátolo).
     
  24. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I think they gave the first goal to Jhasmani, or so said the commentators.

    They said he has 3 goals this Copa... with 2 coming from last night.


    WIth that said, we will get a VERY stressful game next vs. Santos.

    But tis is what the team was built for. Hoyos has our boys go out and play vs. every team away from home, because I am sick of bolivians giving too much respect to their opponents and trying to defend the whole game.

    WIth how we've done inthe group stages taking points away from home... I think we'll give Santos a good run at their house.

    It's possible you know.....

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Rj2lYgslk"]Atle. Parenaense 1 Bolívar 2 copa Libertadores 2002 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  25. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I read an interview Hoyos gave to a Brazilian news vehicle. The man struck me as humble: he said his team is comprised of simple, hardworking athletes who have a lunch-pail attitude and give their all on the pitch. I can respect any team that brings that to the game.

    Having said that, your team may pay for its fans' conduct. An object was thrown at Neymar and Bolivian police had to use its riot shields to protect him while he took a corner kick. They even threw a banana at him, and given the racial overtones that the throwing of bananas during soccer matches has carried in recent years, it's highly ironic because Bolivia is ethnically indigenous for the most part. Chile, Uruguay, and Argentina also field players whose genes display some native blood, to varying extents - but for this to happen in Bolivia is the pot calling the kettle black.

    Santos fans are known to be pretty rabid; whenever Santos visits Palmeiras, Corinthians, and São Paulo, the local police has a LOT of work because many Santos fans are not afraid to get rowdy. I am opposed to all forms of sports thuggery, but your team is in for one heck of a reception come May.
     

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