Stand Your Ground: George Zimmerman Charged

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by CHICO13, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. YankBastard

    YankBastard Na Na Na Na NANANANAAA!

    Jun 18, 2005
    Estados Unidos
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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0yY83EcADY"]George Zimmerman's First Court Appearance (Raw Video) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
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  3. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
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    Maybe she just hates Latinos :p
     
  4. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    If you take the purely cynical political view this is correct- the only possible option all along was to not go to the grand jury (you can't risk them refusing to indict), charge Zimmerman and make the arrest. It was the only way to diffuse the situation and have the public think that case was given its fair "day in court". Zimmerman is sitting in jail now, and that by itself does something to make people feel that something worthwhile has been accomplished, even if he isn't ultimately convicted. Regardless of whether the prosecution is holding a strong or weak hand, it was hard to see this playing out any other way.

    This is exactly right. I wonder, though, how this impacts the DOJ investigation.
     
  5. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

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    May 4, 2006
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    The more fringe elements probably not, but I think the vast majority would be fine with voluntary manslaughter. It's a lot better than the fat lot of nothing he was charged with beforehand.
     
  6. YankBastard

    YankBastard Na Na Na Na NANANANAAA!

    Jun 18, 2005
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    If I'm not mistaking, Murder 1 is 'Premeditated Murder.' Meaning he did some sort of planning in the murder. I think it's obvious he didn't know him until that moment and couldn't plan ahead of time to kill him.
     
  7. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
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    I didn't say she didn't eventually come out on top, but it did end her career as a prosecutor. She got a lot of flack, and it was a couple years before she came back into the public eye after that.

    I'm not getting your logic at all. You're suggesting that Corey wants to placate "the media" with a harsh charge that won't stick? Do you think people screaming for justice will be satisfied with a murder charge and an acquittal?

    I think it's incredibly naive -- no, not naive, just incredibly clouded judgment -- to believe that a prosecutor doesn't care whether she gets a conviction.

    And what you're saying about the grand jury and murder 1 makes no sense at all. If she has enough evidence to prove murder 2, then she simply must have enough evidence for murder 1? Or else she must not have a good case for either. How on earth do you figure that?
     
  8. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I am naive enough to think that the prosecutor thinks there is a decent case to make, and that if not charges would not be filed.

    Touching, I know.
     
  9. DoctorD

    DoctorD Member+

    Sep 29, 2002
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    As a non-lawyer, could the charges also pave the way for a Supreme Court ruling on the constitutionality of the "Stand your ground" law? Doesn't a "test case" have to occur, with appeal upon appeal up to the SCOTUS?

    Could be an interesting one for gun owners' rights.
     
  10. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    :confused: What would a constitutional challenge to SYG look like? :confused:
     
  11. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    Is there a specific reason you think there is a constitutional question regarding the SYG statute, or are you just generally wondering if a court would ever strike down or limit the statute?
     
  12. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
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    Marcia wasn't fired from her job, she resigned over a year after the trial to do a book tour.

    This is a PR campaign at this point. They want this thing to go away. Come out with a strong charge, drag out the proceedings, hope that the furor dies down by the time it winds its way through the judicial system.

    A conviction for Murder 2 will be a legal victory, but i'm guessing much of her actual electorate will be following the case via Fox News. How do you think they'll spin it? Like i said, she is a politician that has been handed a political hot potato. I'm sure they would be happy with a Manslaughter conviction, they made their point with the charge.

    The difference between the crimes is the defendant's mental state. So how do you prove a mental state? Whether the charge is Murder 1 or 2 the evidence in this case will be the same, it's just how you argue it. You don't think that chasing someone with a gun could be argued as evidence of premeditation? Of course it could. So let me ask you, why do you think she didn't go to a Grand Jury?
     
  13. JeremyEritrea

    JeremyEritrea Member+

    Jun 29, 2006
    Takoma Park, MD
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    I'm not a lawyer. However, I have served jury duty on two different trials, both of them for attempted murder.

    And in both cases I can honestly say that the prosecuting attorneys were genuinely and emotionally invested in the outcome.

    Personally, I want prosecutors to be empathetic with the victims, and act as surrogates to ensure that the justice is served on their behalf. Naive? Maybe, but I don't care.
     
  14. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    This might be counterfactual, but I recall hearing my dad and some other Vande law alums discussing that a trial practice class was taught there that followed her prosecution, essentially teaching it as what not to do.
     
  15. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    I guess that's theoretically possible, but it would depend on the decision, the appeals, and many other things happening through the process, over the course of several years.
     
  16. DoctorD

    DoctorD Member+

    Sep 29, 2002
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    just generally wondering
     
  17. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
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    Maybe one of the lawyers here can shed some light, but I don't think the only difference is mental state. I understood that first degree murder is premeditated murder, in which case the prosecution would have to prove that Zimmerman lay in wait for Martin or someone else with the specific intent of killing him, or perhaps that he followed Martin with the specific intent of killing him.

    If it were impossible to prove mental state or premeditation, then there would be no legal distinction between murder 1 and murder 2. The evidence for the two charges would NOT be the same at all. For example, the 911 call pretty clearly indicates that Zimmerman was not specifically planning to kill anyone.
     
  18. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    The mental state difference is the big one. I don't know FL specifically, but in general, the mental state required for premeditation can be formed in an instant. It doesn't necessarily require premeditation in the sense of forming a plan ahead of time.
     
  19. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
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    Oct 4, 2001
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    But in the context of this particular case it would be all but impossible to prove. He saw Trayvon, targeted him and initiated an altercation all the while knowing he was going to pull the trigger? Pitting self defense against premeditation would be a battle royale that I think the prosecution ends up losing.
     
  20. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
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    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
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    I can't think of any reason off the top of my head (beyond insufficient evidence) why a prosecutor couldn't charge both second degree murder and manslaughter, but as a practical matter it doesn't happen that often because a prosecutor usually just wants to charge the more serious crime, again, assuming there's evidence to support.

    However, manslaughter (in most if not all states) can be considered a lesser-included offense of second degree murder. And most states have case law, if not statutory law, that requires a court to charge a jury on the lesser-included offense if the defense requests such a charge (which the defense usually does) and there's any evidence to support it.

    As for double jeopardy....I'm not quite sure what you're asking. It's not double jeopardy to allow a jury to convict someone on either second degree murder or the lesser-included charge of manslaughter at the conclusion of a defendant's trial.

    It would constitute double jeopardy if the defendant was acquitted of second degree murder at the conclusion of his trial and then the prosecutor attempted to re-charge and re-try on manslaughter.
     
  21. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    I think that is probably true. In many states, murder 1 (or capital) cases also have other procedural safeguards that make that charge less likely if the prosecution is not confident of proving the mens rea.

    My sincere hope, regardless of the outcome, is that attorneys on both sides perform well.
     
  22. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
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    Jun 16, 1999
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    Different states have different distinctions between first degree (or capital) murder and second degree murder, but as I read the Florida statute, the main difference is the mental state. But Yankhibee is correct that most states have case law that says premeditation can occur fairly quickly....it doesn't have to be a long drawn out plan. I haven't checked what Florida case law says in that regard.
     
  23. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    My short answer would be no, because like tj I don't see a constitutional or legal defect with the statute.

    Moreover, unless there is a big surprise waiting for us, this isn't a SYG case (in other words, if Zimmerman can prove that he was actually being beat by Trayvon to the point of being in fear of serious bodily harm or death, the prosecution for all practical purposes wouldn't be able to show that Zimmerman had a chance to safely retreat), so that specific legal issue probably will never even come up.

    More generally, however, the publicity from this case might cause people to give more thought and attention to self defense laws in Florida and other states. Not only could legislatures repeal SYG laws in those states where they exist, but if people actually want to return to imposing a duty to retreat in states where it has been abolished by judges, is it possible that groups will push to have "anti-SYG statutes" passed?

    I agree. The girlfriend also heard a statement by Zimmerman at the start of the confrontation which don't express any intent to kill at that point, so as far as we know there isn't any evidence at all to support premeditated murder.
     
  24. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
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    True, but their isn't any evidence of the "ill will, spite, malice or hatred" needed to prove second degree murder at this point either, but that didn't stop the Prosecutor from charging it.

    Sorry, i derailed the discussion with the Murder 1 tangent. The point i was trying to make was if there was some kind of really damning evidence that we don't know about, then why not take it to a Grand Jury? Based on what i've seen so far, i think they were worried that they might not even get a Murder 2 indictment, which would have been disastrous. Like i said earlier, i think this charge was a political statement. The Miami Herald said this:

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/11/2743404/second-degree-murder-charge-may.html#storylink=cpy

    To me they wanted to get him charged with a significant crime (and it seems that manslaughter has no minimum sentence) and have him locked up to deflect the criticism and ease the public scrutiny. Hell, even Zimmerman's lawyer is playing along by not asking for bail. I think both sides want this thing to cool down before the case moves forward. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they were discussing on the phone a few days ago.
     
  25. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis
    The Florida Statute
    (2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in
     

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