The fight against modern Soccer(football) 2

No, I'm saying no owners in the literal sense. German clubs are non-profit organizations, with a specific legal status, and have no owner. It's legally impossible for anyone to own the club Bayern Munich for example.

Things are a bit more complicated these days since many clubs (but not all) formed companies that run their professional football sections. The German rules aren't about ownership, they request that, if the football team of a club has been turned into a company, the control has to remain with the parent club. The professional football section of Bayern Munich is therfore under controll of the parent club, although shares of the company can be sold. But even if a person bought 100% of those shares, he still couldn't make decisions against the vote of the parent club. This is why you don't have sheiks trying to buy into Bayern or Dortmund.

 

Well, mostly Germany of course - although comparable systems exist in Spain, Portugal, Turkey and Scandinavia.

See post above, no majority owners in case of Germany.

 

So at Bayern Munich, who does the buck stop with? Who decides?

 

Hey Ford vs Chevy can be as hateful as Boca Jrs vs River Plate

 

The professional football sections is run by a CEO and supervisory board. They answer to the parent club, where the chairman and board are elected by the members.

 

To have an owner who more than likely helps run things seems less bureaucratic.

 

De facto clubs are run by the management - it's not as if you have votes on hiring a coach, or stuff like this.

- the club won't move or ever be sold, and it's a part of the local community (since after all the club consists of members, who are mostly locals)
- the club can spend all the money it earns, there's no owner who wants a share
- as non-profits clubs won't raise prices only with maximum profit in mind
- in extreme cases of mismanagement the members can vote the club leadership out

Doesn't mean this turns everything into a fan friendly paradise, and there's a lot of club internal politics as a result of this. It's also possible that sponsors gain de facto control of a club (although never de jure). But at least I know that my club will never, ever end up like Wimbledon.

 

Probably won't be Manchester United or Chelsea either?

 

And who is to say that Manchester United or Chelsea won't collapse because of all of the debt that they have? The German model is certainly more sustainable in the long run.

 

Who is to say they will?

 

That's due to the financial rules, not the ownership structures.

 

I thought there was no standing at Euro competitions. Someone said that Bayern Munich changes terraces for Bundesliga to seating for Champions League. There is no way they have standing at the World Cup.

 

Well, you are the one that said they'd never be the level of Manchester United or Chelsea. We don't know what could happen. They could get to that level. Or Manchester United/Chelsea could completely fall apart. It's the future, we don't know what will happen.

And why is there no standing in UEFA/FIFA competitions? You can charge a hell of a lot more money for a seat.

 

We don't know the future do we. But, look at the clubs that have had trouble. Portsmouth, Leeds United, Rangers, are the most well known. None had/have the Brand that either Manchester United or Chelsea have currently. Not to say it couldn't happen.

As I have said before though, you can't insulate football teams in a bubble. Unfortunately, sometimes bad things happen. Look at the Los Angeles Dodgers. One of the most famous baseball franchises. Bankruptcy. I understand they were part of a divorce settlement, but, as I said things happen.

The basketball franchise inNew Orleans is owned by the NBA. Hockey franchise in Phoenix owned by the NHL. Clubs can't exist in some fantasy world.

 

Well, this part is pretty true. A lot of Americans avoided places like DC and NYC during the bad old days. Can't say I blame them.

I'm sure the terraces weren't uniformly a post-apocalyptic hell all over Europe. But, I doubt the average black guy or well-behaved middle-class person felt all that welcome or safe in most soccer terraces during the bad old days.

Like I said, the MLS teams that have standing areas seem to have no problems. But I can't really blame Europeans for being hesitant to bring back the terraces, given their history. We're fortunate that the extremes of fan behavior have never been all that common here in the US, except in places populated by sub-human troglodytes, such as Oakland and Philly.

 

But really, it's only the English that have a huge aversion to terracing in the top flight. I understand the aversion, but the game has changed. It's by no means perfect. I think UEFA really is soft on racism. However, Germany and lots of other countries have shown that it is quite safe. I enjoy terracing.

 

As I said, going to a football game in the 80s, and early 90s, wasn't all that family friendly period. It's not like "respectable" people bought seats instead or anything. Germany never band terracing, and yet there's still been a huge change in demographics, and attendances have trippled since the 1980s.

I don't know if any of the Americans here have been to soccer games in Europe 20 or so years ago - but hooligan culture (now mostly a nostalgic memory for those involved), neo nazis in the stands, stadia being ruins without even proper toiletts, lack of transportation to and from the stadium, that's all stuff you could take on without banning terraces.

Yeah, that's another bonus. I mean, a few more titles would be nice and all, but certainly not at such a cost.

I'm pretty sure he meant that people actually keep staying anyway.

 

How do you get people are staying away? Looks like for UEFA competitions - it is MANDATED that stadiums be all seaters.

 

People stand anyway at European competitions, even though the stadiums are all seaters. You think the people in the Südtribune at Westfallen are just going to sit down because UEFA mandates that they have seats?

Yes, it is mandated, but it doesn't stop people from standing.

 

I get that. I have seen fans stand at stadiums. Alex K made it sound like people were staying away because they couldn't stand.

 

I think that was a typo...

 

Just a little bit of a fire hazard?

 

Yeah, it was - wanted to write "standing anyway" obviously .