'Messi scores all his goals because of Xavi and Iniesta making sick assists...'

technically he plays up front as a false 9, drops back when the midfield struggles to help out.

In Argentina he does play the playmaker role on midfield, I recommend you looking for Messi vs Spain on youtube. One his finest performances in my opinion.

 

To be exact, Messi started as a false 9 since late 2010 thanks to Guardiola's Cruijff inspiration ...

For Argentina, He played as playmaker at WC2010, and copa2011. Other than that he was playing as wide forwards most of the time - even in his last few friendlies

 

that game against mallorca wasnt anything outside the norm for messi...hes been doing it for a while. That must have been Alexis worst game and the other new kid couldn't finish worth crap

 

Messi played false 9 in the final against Manchester United in 08-09. After that he constantly switched from a RWF to a CF/false 9 constantly even when Eto'o and Ibra were on the pitch.

He rarely played specifically as a wide forward for Argentina. At times yes, most of the time no. Since the 2007 Copa America he was playing as a support forward with Riquelme being the playmaker. Things shifted though when Argentina lost a true playmaker and Messi started dropping deeper and deeper and that has basically continued since the WCQ's, till the WC, till the Copa America and even now even though he gets more support he still is dropping too deep.

 

You would not be arguing that Messi was the best ever if he needed someone to get him the ball to score goals.

Was Maradona the best in his time or ever because he needed someone to get him the ball to score goals.

If he Messi could not score goals off his dribble he would have a weakness in his game. No one would be even mentioning him as maybe the best ever if he could not be dangerous off his dribble.

Just my oppionion.

 

How do you know this? Where is that stat?

Anyway, the discussion has been done million times before. I just think the Xavi/Iniesta combo helps a great deal. Xavi is for example the master in timing the pressing of Barcelona. He gives the signal to the others.

 

If he had not his dribble, in the hypothetical case, then he was just another Raul - which was a very good player.

Of course Maradona also needed team-mates. Careca was fantastic in creating spaces and channels. But Maradona was not only a goal-machine. Maradona could also do, and often did, some of the jobs that Xavi and Iniesta often executed.

 

http://www.goal.com/en/news/2939/ca...el-messi-retains-top-spot-in-castrol-rankings

For the Argentina one I have to look it up but I read it somewhere. I checked for 2011 and he had around 10 assists for Argentina in 2011. I have to check the years prior.

 

First this ranking was wayout of date = As it;s hilarious to see a "crippled" Torres in 4th place why Kaka is on 86th ...

Eventhough they are two different player and position, Kaka NOW is MUCH more dangerus and effective than Torress (Chelsea) I forgot to count how many games he did not score ... so many so long until last week - Gosh

 

Yeah Puck, just like Dr.Know said, how can you say Xavi and Iniesta make the difference? The numbers show otherwise. And if you watch the actual Barca games you would see the same. Every player is important to this Barca team, but no one makes more difference than Messi himself.

Is that the first time you see Messi play as playmaker for Barca? He has been doing that for some time now.....even when both Xavi and Iniesta are on the field! Messi has been developing himself as a playmaker for a long time now, btw.

Correct, but I'm not sure if he has that many assists for Argentina.

Messi was Barca's leading assister last season only. He has more assists than Xavi and Iniesta combined! This season I think he lead the team in assists again, so it looks like he may end up as lead assister for second straight season (on top of being the team's top scorer...again)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.....and wrong.

Messi has been playing as False 9 since the second half Guardiola's first season - 2008-09. To be even more specific he has been playing that role for Guardiola since early 2009. And he has played as False 9 in Barca's youth teams.

For Argentina, Messi has been the playmaker in qualifiers also and friendlies. Though in the last friendly vs the Swiss, Messi played up front in tandem with Aguero - part of the game, beside Aguero or behind Aguero, with a free role.

Messi can and has scored on his own too, plenty of times.

Yes, even Maradona (or Pele, or whatever name you want to throw) needed his team-mates. Football is a team game. Though players like Maradona and Messi can have brilliant individual plays too.

Messi is dangerous whenever he is on the field, dribbling or not. In fact, the only time he isn't dangerous is when he is not on the field.

There is a difference between saying "Xavi/Iniesta combo helps" and "Xavi/Iniesta combo make the big difference". All Barca players help and contribute to the team. But Messi makes the biggest difference of them all.

If you watch Barca as often as I do, you would see that Messi also does some of the job that Xavi and Iniesta do.

 

[This thread reminds me that FIFA needs to "tighten-up" on what an assist is and what it isn't and award and track them in a manner closer to how ice hockey does it; which is where the stat comes from (as it relates to football). Can you imagine how confusing it would be if it were officially more subjective as to what constitutes scoring a goal?]

 

Is there not a standard definition? I have troubles understanding what constitutes an assist myself.

 

[I HATE having to utilise Wikipedia as a source; but the information seems to be fairly accurate:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assist_(football)


What really needs to be sorted out (IMO) is what's called the primary and the secondary assist in ice hockey...]

 

Thank you for the link, I see what you mean, who is determining if the second to last pass played an important role or not? That is completely subjective as you said. I also had no idea that a player who's shot was rebounded or a player that earns a foul is awarded an assist if a goal occurs on the subsequent play, free-kick or penalty. So a player who wins a penalty then scores technically assists his own goal.

 

That was always in my mind when I played the original Fantasy Football (just 2 points for an assist and 3 for a goal plus clean sheet/appearance points for defenders/GK's) - players were not awarded 5 points in that situation though.

It would also be an extra bit annoying perhaps if a player has dived to get the penalty (for Fantasy League players and/or fans of following the players' statistics - it is of course annoying for the opposition and their fans anyway if that happens).

 

Its always interesting how people bring up false accusations to try to undermine some player, specially if they dont like him or like someone else (CR for example) better.

Funny thing is tho, CR scored alot more goals this season by direct assists from his teammates than Messi did, so tough luck CR fanboys but if Messi is so good because of the assists he gets then that makes CR even worse than he is.

 

[Are you talking about football or ice hockey here, mate?]

 

[IK, my point is that most football leagues don't even award or track secondary assists AT ALL: please re-read the link that I posted regarding how FIFA officially tracks assists and how it differs from ice hockey...]

 

FIFA has a weird law on assist. PK and free kick are not counted ... Well freekick I can accept but an assist to a pk is almost a sure goal and not counted in FIFA rule!

 

Unless it's this Jesper Olsen assist ...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHN1mN5SCg"]cruyff penalty - YouTube[/ame]

Interesting though. The newspapers etc that run Fantasy Football games have a different rule to FIFA then (or they did originally/the official Fantasy League game published in the Daily Telegraph, but now online I think, does/did).

 

Spain are world and Euro champs because of Xavi and Iniesta. They dont have anyone remotely like Messi in their team. Then you look at Argentina with messi who havent been remotely close to winning either the World cup or Copa America with him. Not that the rest of their team is shabby ,its because they havent got a Xavi or Iniesta . The real difference makers in my opinion .

Look at the 2010 world cup where Germany adopted narrow defence to stop Messi dead in his tracks because they didnt have to deal with the precision of Xavi and Iniesta as well. They ended up 4-0 winners and Messi was marked out of the game easily. When Messi steps outside the Barcelona system he just isnt as effective .Otherwise Argentina would be world champs.

 

I didnt say anything about him being "at fault" for anything.

Xavi and Iniesta control the tempo and rhythm with their brilliant vision and precision passing that no team can stop. They are the real reason why Spain and Barcelona have been dominating. A team that has 2 players that can play amazing precision passes from deep cant be stopped. Simple as that.

When Messi plays for Argentina a team focuses its marking on Messi. I believe Barcelona wouldnt control games with ridiculous possession stats without Xavi and Iniesta. They instigate the control of the games. Opposition teams dont know where to focus their marking and defence and Messi benefits from it. He doesnt have that with Argentina where teams can put their markers on him .