RSL v Chivas de Estados Unidos. 3/24/12. 7pm. P/I/P

Discussion in 'Real Salt Lake' started by 15 to 32, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. dstorm

    dstorm Member

    Apr 13, 2007
    Salt Lake City
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So if the ref is walking off the 10 yards with his back turned to the play is that the real issue here?

    Once he turns his back and pulls out the spray can does that negate the ability to take the quick start?

    I think what MLS is saying is once the ref determined he was marking off the 10 yards RSL must wait for the whistle.
     
  2. IgotWood

    IgotWood New Member

    Feb 6, 2012
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    upin is exactly right, I catch RSL play whenever I can, I've commented on here a couple of times and and have usually not been welcomed because my favorite team doesn't say RSL. Anyway, I started watching the game on MLS live right as the ref blew the whistle to call it back. I didn't see the initial foul but i did notice that the ref had already sprayed the little line with his can of whatever. that means he counted off 10 steps and took the time to mark the field. (at least 10 seconds) why did rsl wait so long to take a "quick" restart? this might rub some the wrong way, but the fact is, by the body language of the chivas players, they were waiting on the ref, they were obviously expecting a ceremonial restart by the actions of the referee. It probably would't have been a goal in the first place if chivas had been prepared for a quick start. that still doesn't excuse the actions of the referee, and the goal should have stood either way. the only replay I've seen starts right when rsl kicks the ball. the ref is bending down with his back away from the ball. the only excuse the ref can have in this situation is if he is talking to someone from chivas (explaining the call or for whatever reason) if thats the case, then he can prevent a fast restart from being taken but he still has to make it known to whoever is taking the kick, but that didn't appear to be the case.

    the schuller yellow was beyond ridiculous and confirms the unprofessionalism of the referee. not only was it not a yellow, but it wasn't even a foul. one of the cleanest slide tackles I've seen this season.
     
  3. I_Believe_In_Kreis

    Oct 2, 2006
    on the pitch
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. If that's the case, then the referee did two things wrong:

    1. If he needs to take a moment to explain a call, break up an altercation, or issue a card, the right thing to do is turn to the kick-taker and say "wait for my whistle". This ref didn't do that.
    2. If he needs to bring the free kick back for a restart (like for example, the ball wasn't stationary when the free kick was taken or it was placed in the wrong spot), he should do it immediately. This ref waited for 4 passes and a shot, then blew the whistle while Kennedy was pulling it out of the net. It's like he was waiting to see what happened before making a decision. This isn't an advantage situation, ref...if there's a problem or you're not ready, make it known right away.
     
  4. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some helpful info in the ref forum here.

    FWIW, I heard the whistle before Schuler took his shot - it was a lenghty blast, too,
     
  5. ReAL Boy

    ReAL Boy New Member

    Aug 8, 2011
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    I don't want to bag on the center ref, but since I heard he was the center when our home win streak fell to seattle, I had to find out more about his work...

    -It turns out that he has one star out of five on football-lineups.com (1 rating) FWIW

    -He was the center in 16 MLS games, last year's home loss to seattle was his fourth game

    This is really weird, despite both teams' overall records during the past year and change:
    -RSL's record with him as center 1-3-0
    -CHV's record with him as center 3-0-1

    I don't think he hates us or anything, I just wonder if his game management style favors teams that play ugly...
     
  6. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    I think this is it in a nutshell. When you allow a team to play anti-soccer and not be punished for chicken sh*t play you get chicken sh*t play.

    This guy inserted himself into the game from the get go and didn't let off until final whistle.

    Still RSL should have finished its chances and not let chicken middle sh*t make enough bad calls to help out chicken sh*t chivas and their punk ass play. I will watch the replay on MLS live to see if what I saw was what I saw and it was a lot of chicken sh*t.

    RSL needs to be more mentally tough because there is plenty more of this chicken sh*t, punk ass play to come this season.
     
  7. nfc1432

    nfc1432 Member

    Nov 3, 2010
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    The ref definitely blew the whistle before the goal was scored. I dont understand the logic behind the whistle though. Chivas broke the rules and the ref called a foul. Chivas further broke the rules by not giving us 10 yards, so they could get their defense set up. The ref took it upon himself to give Chivas even more time by "ceremoniously" marking 10 yards we didnt ask give for, thus giving them exactly what they wanted. He denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity with the whistle and should have been red carded and removed from the game immediately. We would have been better off if the refs had to play down a man.
     
  8. RoyalNonesuch

    RoyalNonesuch Member+

    May 10, 2009
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Glad to hear someone else agrees with the Schuler slide being a non-foul. Looked - to me - like Schuler cleared the ball, and LaBrocca or whoever it was stepped on the ball and fell, and 'earned' the yellow.
     
  9. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Listening to the CDCUSA broadcast was funny. Eric Wynalda was the color commentator, and he ripped absolutely every one of the first half calls that went against RSL, this one included. You don't normally hear the employees for the other team so clearly bashing calls in their team's favor.
     
  10. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Just went through that thread. I need to post here so that I don't troll. Tthat MassachussettsRef guy knows his stuff, but I find his answers incredibly condescending and presumptuous seeing that he strongly dismisses any disagreements or points that contradict his view without himself having watched the first 15-20minutes of the game.

    I agree that a miscommunication is very likely, but from my personal vantage point, the ref is largely at blame because HE didn't clearly communicate to the attacking players that they needed to wait for a whistle. He seemed to me to just start spraying foam without any communication to the players, neither Chivas nor RSL.

    However, I would have to honestly think that if I were Beckerman or Grabavoy and saw the ref laying down spray foam, I would wait for him to finish, or at least protest while he's doing it when I didn't ask for the ceremonial restart, seeing that none of the other 3 possible situations didn't apply (check out that thread).

    The restart was likely the correct call regardless of his poor communication, but the whole thing was managed rather poorly by the ref, as well stated by nfc1432 above.

    All that said, RSL blew it. What a bummer of a game for 20k plus people to attend.
     
  11. kirsoccer

    kirsoccer BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 29, 2007
    Were you watching on Direct Kick? I'm curious if the Chivas feed was a shared feed. It would have been nice to see what happened between the foul and Ned's kick. That could clear up some of the mystery surrounding this, but I assume that they used ABC's feed.

    I think that the general presumption there is that referee is correct until proven incorrect. I would actually generally agree with this, as I often support the referee on issues that most fans don't. However, I just have no confidence in this guy. From the opening whistle he seemed over his head. I even leaned over and told IBIK that I wish Kennedy was the CR instead of the 4th (and I'm not a big fan of his either).
     
  12. juan agudelowns

    Apr 27, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    I know this pain of losing at home to Chivas, I know it all too well :(
     
  13. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you haven't read through the ref forum that Ish linked eariler, you should.

    KIR is a bad ass in that thing.
    This mASS ref refuses to admit that the center is to blame on this.

    I also find it interesting that they are fine with the center interpreting things as s/he pleases. Nobody asked for 10 yards in this situation, but the ref treated it like they did. Therefore RSL has to obey the refs demands of waiting for his whistle.

    If that isn't unnecessarily inserting yourself into the match (which refs shouldn't do) then I don't know what is.

    The ref ********ed this one up no matter how you spin it. As soon as he started to spray the foam he was ********ing it up.
     
  14. Christoph

    Christoph Member

    Aug 20, 2006
    Farm Country
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously, usually Dunseth is the only home commentator that talks more crap on his own team than on the visitors...
     
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As somebody who's reading both threads I'll point out here what I did there, the USSF guidelines for giving 10 yards explicitly give the ref this leeway if he feels its necessary for the game even if a player doesn't request it. I didn't see the incident so I don't know if the referee's judgement on what the match needed was correct or not, but the referee didn't do anything contrary to the Laws or USSF guidelines. If his judgement was poor that will be caught in his assessment.
     
  16. Christoph

    Christoph Member

    Aug 20, 2006
    Farm Country
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing that hasn't been brought up in this discussion is that the players didn't really protest a whole lot after he called the goal back. Maybe I just didn't see it on TV and they were going crazy. But it seems to me that Beckerman and Ned just tried to pull a quick one and when it didn't work they reset and tried again...
     
  17. Allez RSL

    Allez RSL Member+

    Jun 20, 2007
    Home
    Yep. After reading the ref thread, my working theory is that the CR didn't do the "point to the whistle" indication that the FK was ceremonial, and Kyle & Ned thought they could get away with a quick restart because there wasn't "official" notification to wait.
     
  18. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't been to the referee board yet but I will quote an exchange I had on RSLSoapbox. This was before I saw the game and before MLS said the ref was correct.

    Then I was asked if the ref has the right to make the kick ceremonial without being asked, to which I replied:

    Sometimes a ref has to make difficult calls and when they make the correct call they should be commended. The ref knows the Law better than the players (who should have known not to take the kick), the commentators, and the fans. In this case he was correct.

    I had the exact opposite happen to me. I was following play and saw a foul at the 18. I stopped play, told the players to wait, and went to consult with the AR to see where the foul was (PK or DFK just outside the area). It was a DFK. I set the ball and moved away to take a good position. Before I whistled the player took the kick and put it over the crossbar.

    How I wanted to let it ride and award a goal kick. But the correct call is to warn the player and retake the kick--which I did. The player scored. The coaches and fans made it perfectly clear that my "blown call" had cost them the game. In my view, to award the goal kick would have amounted to disregarding the rules to suit my personal preference; in other words cheating. Here's the thing: I don't think anyone there knew the rules and no no from either team would have said a thing had I awarded a goal kick. But I knew and my ARs knew and my ethics compelled me to order the retake. Refs have to put their personal preference aside and do what the Laws require, even if it is unpopular.

    Back to the current situation. You can bet that had the goal stood Chivas would have complained about not being ready because they were waiting for the referee to restart play. The the league would have had to acknowledge (at least privately :D) that the ref was wrong. An incorrectly awarded goal would have stood and the ref's future assignments would have been at risk.
     
  19. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    so it would have been better for the league as a whole (sorry Chivas) had he let the goal stand...
     
  20. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    exactly!
     
  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not following your logic here...
     
  22. UPinSLC

    UPinSLC Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    SL,UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    lol.


    i dont mean to dispute Dadof6 and the other way more qualified people on this topic, but i will argue it. i brought up the timbers and how they love quick restarts and have scored many many goals off of them. these also included goals where a "ceremonial" restart appeared to be undertaken by the ref (in such a way that the opposing team and ref appeared to be getting ready for a 10 yard wall and ref's whistle, etc etc). also if you watched the NYDP's vs Dallas game opening weekend you would have watched henry earn a free kick about 25 yards from goal, the ref stop and begin to mark the wall and as EVERYONE (including the ref) is preparing for the "ceremonial" re-start, henry takes it quick, catches hartmen setting his wall and on the far right post with a completely open net on the left side. of course henry somehow managed to ping the shot off the post (quite possibly one of the worst free kick misses i've ever seen) and play continued. the ref didnt whistle it dead, didnt do anything, everyone scrambled and somehow dallas managed to not get scored on. had henry scored i'm sure it would have stood.

    that is probably the most blatant example i can think of recently where this "ceremonial" restart and ref's decision is an utter load of shit. RSL's goal should have counted, period. the ref ********ed up. IMO the ref is there to ensure the game follows its framework and the guidelines of the game, he is NOT there to make decisions on how the outcome is determined. the ref on saturday did that, he inserted himself into the game when it was unnecessary.
     
  23. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    he's a shit ref that shouldn't be doing games.
    if this would have made it so he couldn't officiate, all the better.
     
  24. Christoph

    Christoph Member

    Aug 20, 2006
    Farm Country
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This reminds me of the Ryan Giggs free kick versus Lille in the Champions League a few years back. I'll have to see if I can find a video.
     
  25. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two wrongs don't make a right. If other refs screwed it up (and without seeing the incidents in question I have no idea if they did or not) that doesn't mean that this ref should have let the goal stand as well.

    Well from that POV I can see the logic. ;)
     

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