2012 Algarve Cup

Discussion in 'Women's International' started by mcruic, Oct 5, 2011.

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  1. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree the penalty was very weak. Does anyone know who the referee was? Who was the German player? Bianca Schmidt?

    It was a dive. If we don't want diving in the women's game we have to criticize it when it appears.
     
  2. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't agree. The defender comes from behind and pulls Schmidt with her hands, that's usually a foul.
     
  3. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I guess that it was undoubtedly a foul and the penalty was fair, although probably Schmidt accentuated the fall a little (she wanted to be sure to get the pk? :p)

    On a different note, any german fan knows why Bajramaj or Garefrekes didn't play any minute? Are they injured or is it a technical choice?
     
  4. Micol

    Micol Member+

    Sep 16, 2008
    Bajramaj got injured just before the tournament. She was in Portugal with the team but was unable to play (and may not be fit for tomorrow's league match).

    Garefrekes? She retired from the national team after the WWC...
     
  5. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Oh, I didn't know that! :eek:

    Since I always watch her play in Bundesliga with Frankfurt (and playing quite well, in my opinion), I was assuming she was still active also with National Team. :eek:
    Is she so old to retire from NT? Or did she retire for other reasons? :confused:
     
  6. Micol

    Micol Member+

    Sep 16, 2008
    She wanted to focus more on her job, and at 32 she probably thought the time was right. If Germany had qualified for this year's Olympics, I can well imagine that she would have stayed on another year, but the 2013 Euros probably were a bit too far away.
     
  7. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If that kind of contact is a proper penalty, we'd have about 5 to 10 PKs a game. I absolutely disagree. The only reason why it's a pnealty here is because Schmidt took the dive and referees in the women's game aren't used to seeing that at this level.
     
  8. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    No, it's a foul.

    It doesn't actually matter if Schmidt falls to the ground or not, the holding itself is the foul. It's sloppy defending, you just don't use your hands on your opponent, especially not when you're behind him/her.
     
  9. mumf

    mumf Member+

    Nov 7, 2008
    I notice however that you dont deny that she dived.

    By the standard that actually exists (I dont mean the "rules") I agree it was "sloppy defending" - and even a "foul" - but...... a PK ?!?!?

    Well, I suspect the dive helped.
     
  10. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't know if she dived or not. I can't say it for sure.

    And if something is a foul then you get a penalty for it when it happens inside the penalty area.

    There is no thing that is a foul outside of the penalty area but no foul inside the penalty area. (Unless of course it's the goal keeper handling the ball :eek:)
     
  11. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, sure. We know by the letter of the law that it's a foul.

    But such relatively minor contact is not typically called for a foul. I don't think many will care to deny that. And of course it's relevant - if over 90% of the time this wouldn't be whistled, then why is it whistled here? Because Schmidt took a dive.
     
  12. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Schmidt like any good attacker ran across the path of the defender to protect the ball, and also increase the opportunity for contact. Due to Schmidt's intelligence in understanding the build up of the play, the Japanese defender quickly found her self in a terrible position by allowing Schmidt to be on goal side (inside run) when the pass comes through.

    In the end the minimal contact in the box didn't need to be a dive. Schmidt going down became the last act for a desperate defender, attempting to make up for being out thought/maneuvered for a clear goal scoring situation, which was obvious, as much as it was cheap.

    So yeah Schmidt dived like a WWE wrestler, but like a WWE wrestler it's not like she never received any contact, she just received enough to make it look convincing after a perfect setup. :)
     
  13. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    It was something right out of Das Boot.

    Here's the replay.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVBPGZEVRH0&feature=youtube_gdata_player#t=0m52s"]Schmidt dive[/ame]Z
     
  14. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    OK then, lets take it back to the way you like it.

    Schmidt just dived, she's German, it's the only way they could find a way to win.

    Is that better chief? :rolleyes:.
     
  15. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Yeah, just remember it when the USA wins a match and people start crying about referee match fixing.:)
     
  16. And G

    And G Member+

    Jan 31, 2010
    Club:
    Okayama Yunogo Belle
    It was a foul, it was inside the box, so it was a PK. What's so hard to understand about that?
     
  17. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's so hard to understand that nobody cares to dipute that this is contact that goes uncalled 95% of the time or more?

    Sorry but that's a perfectly relevant viewpoint.
     
  18. And G

    And G Member+

    Jan 31, 2010
    Club:
    Okayama Yunogo Belle
    There can be major contact without there being a foul, and there can be fouls without any contact. So... no, it's not a relevant viewpoint.

    Is it possible that you've never actually read the laws of the game and derive your knowledge of the rules purely from watching games? Because people tend to misinterpret the rules a lot. Maybe you know people who don't know which body parts count for offside, under which circumstances encroachment leads to a PK retake, that you can't score own goals from set pieces including throw-ins, etc etc, and consequently complain about what they think are bad calls.

    Don't be like them. Read the rules.
     
  19. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    It was a mild push from behind, from a DF who felt like she was late and she had been passed by. I guess it could've been perfectly called even outside of the box, although maybe not 100% of the time. I've seen more obvious PKs, but this one doesn't feel like a scandal at all to me. Probably Schmidt accentuated the contact, but I wouldn't really call it a dive, because the contact was there to see.
    Japanese DF, Ariyoshi, knew very well that she had touched Schmidt from behind: in fact she was feeling so guilty and responsible for the team, that she broke up in tears after the final whistle (you can watch a picture of that on the Nadeshiko Japan official thread). There was no reason to cry if it had been just a dive: in that case Ariyoshi would have felt angry, maybe, but she wouldn't have been crying. I don't want to say that this fact prove my point, but, anyway, if the DF herself felt guilty, maybe it means at least something.

    Anyway, although I respect your point of view about it, I am quite annoyed that we quite seem to dispute ourselves about that, like it happen (as a bad habit, in my opinion) in the males' game.

    I am a Japan fan, I was perfectly ok with that PK and I moved on soon (as players also did, I guess). I can understand that, if you feel like there was some kind of cheating involved, you feel the need to publicy denounce it, but since there doesn't seem to be general agreement about that, let's say everyone keeps his own opinion and move on...

    Edit: as a final note, watching some more complete highlights, it appears obvious that there was a PK for Japan at about 5', when Ando was pulled down by her jersey in the box, with clear chance at goal (I guess by Buheler or Rampone): its quite meaningful that I didn't hear Japan fans complain much about that. It was probably a wrong decision, but it was a difficult PK to see without a slow-motion replay, because US DF was very smart. So no-one puts the blame on the referee for that, and we move on: sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and referees happen to make little innocent mistakes. I guess that's the spirit. And I hope the women's game remain like this.
     
  20. And G

    And G Member+

    Jan 31, 2010
    Club:
    Okayama Yunogo Belle
    Oh right, I forgot to mention that I too am a Nadeshiko fan and would have preferred for Germany to score at least one goal less in that game, if that counts for anything.

    And since we're already discussing penalty kicks and refereeing, I would like to complain about a clearly bad non-call in the game against the US, when Ando was brought down in the box during the first minutes when a US defender pulled her shirt. I guess it was impossible to see for the ref though... Anyway, that game should have ended 2-0. ;)

    And does everyone know about Ohno very wrongly being ruled offside in the 2011 WC final? That game shouldn't even have gone to extra time. :D

    Ok we're slightly off-topic now...


    Edit: I swear I typed that before I saw you edited your post, blissett!
     
  21. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    We have all seen Wambach hit the deck more than her size and playing style should allow. Even the new hope and golden girl for U.S. forward line, the one and only Alex Morgan, manage's to find contact in situations the laws of nature would seem to break down. I guess Baby Horse is a pretty apt name, considering the leggy elegance of a young horse can be sometimes accompanied with random reasons to fall over ;).

    The women tend to accept the decisions of the ref, even when their wrong, but diving still isn't a major issue in the women's game. For some reason the girls stupidly feel the need for contact right now before hitting the deck :rolleyes:.
     
  22. rohrlich

    rohrlich Member

    Aug 27, 2011
    I didn't watch the Algarve cup, so I cant comment on whether that was a dive or not. This tournament is not interesting to me.

    On the topic of dive, I must say I have never seen better divers than German football players. In the 1990 WC final, they did excellent in this regard. They pretty much managed to win the final by getting a very disputed penalty (Brehme would later say that was a wrong penalty). Also, the blonde guy Klinsmann who is now the coach of our men's team took some amazing dives and one of them resulted in a red card to an Argentine player.

    So, yes I would not be surprised if Schmidt faked a dive. No grudge here.The diver takes the risk of being caught and get carded. It is a part of the game and German football players are very good at it. Otherwise, they are known to play one of the most ugliest kind of football, but let's not discuss that here.
     
  23. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    Watching the U.S. hi-lights against Japan and Sweden, there were 2 instances where the goal keeper or defender clearly fouled Morgan in the penalty area, but the referee turned a blind eye. In the Sweden game she was shoved to the ground from behind really hard, while in the Japan game she was clearly tripped by the keeper.
     
  24. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Yes, I saw that later. ;)

    They say great minds think alike... :D

    But seriously, it's very reassuring that we, Nadeshiko Japan fans, tend to feel the same and that we basically bear no grudge.
    This is the real sport's spirit in my opinion, folks. :)
     
  25. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know that, culturally, the Japanese (probably especially women) aren't the type to protest this kind of thing.

    Yes I've read the rules. You're right, however, I haven't read the rules on this very closely. But no I don't think "reading the rules" is the issue here -- it's an issue of how the rules are generally applied.

    But I admit I'm unwilling to make the effort to contend this on the philosophical level that would be necessary here so please carry on.

    BabyHorse is such the perfect nickname for her on so many levels. It's unbelievable.


    Yes that is very good spirit. That doesn't mean they don't hope that others, also in the true spirit of the game, should recognize the injustice they've been dealt.
     

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