...but how many butts can they put in the stands. The new MLS teams have shown in D2 that they can bring in the community on a regular basis before they get chosen.
Not to mention the total lack of evidence that NY2 (even if it's called F.cosmos) has a big fanbase ready to flood the ticket office as soon as their entrance into the league is announced. I've commented on this before but during much of the NASL days from the New York perspective the league had three centers, the New York metro area of course with Cosmos (playing in New Jersey), the Pacific Northwest Sounders/Timbers/Whitecaps, and amazingly (given current thinking) Florida with the Rowdies and Strikers. It wasn't about LA or Chicago or DC, no bigger games for us during much of that period than those Florida games.
MLS 2013: New York Cosmos Los Angeles Galaxy Seattle Sounders FC Real Salt Lake FC Dallas Sporting Kansas City Colorado Rapids Houston Dynamo Philadelphia Union Columbus Crew New York Red Bulls Chicago Fire Portland Timbers DC United San Jose Earthquakes Toronto FC New England Revolution Vancouver Whitecaps FC Montreal Impact Fort Lauderdale Strikers NASL 2013: Carolina RailHawks FC Puerto Rico Islanders Tampa Bay Rowdies FC Edmonton Minnesota Stars FC Atlanta Silverbacks San Antonio Scorpions FC Ottawa Fury Orlando City SC Richmond Kickers Rochester Rhinos Charleston Battery Charlotte Eagles Antigua Barracuda FC Pittsburgh Riverhounds FC New York Arizona Sahuaros San Diego Flash Michigan Bucks AC St. Louis
Let's make that $200. This will never happen. Vettefredje, I admire your optomism, but it would be unprecidented for the MLS to expande by 2 teams in one year. I think the likely MLS franchises that we might see in the next 3 years would come from the group of: New York, Detroit, Minnesota And there is now way that NASL is going to grow from 8 teams to 20 teams in one year. We do know that NASL will grow by 1 team by 2013 and that will be the Ottawa Fury. If I had to bet on any NASL teams making it into the MLS, I think the best bets would be Orlando City or San Antonio Scorpions, but I wouldn't make it a big bet. I could see the San Diego Flash moving up to USL Pro. Arizona Sahuaros are almost a defunct team at this point. Arizona will have a USL PDL team with Tucson FC soon and I have heard rumors of a USL Pro team in Phoenix.
Except they expanded by two teams last year. And by two teams in 2005. And by two teams in 1998. New York will probably happen, but not until there's a stadium solution. Which doesn't happen overnight in most places, but especially New York. Minnesota's not happening. There's no momentum there (Wilf? Please. Ploy all the way.) Detroit's people appear to be sincere, if slightly out there. Doesn't it hinge on their stadium deal? Or have they decided to launch in 2013 regardless? Orlando City's not an NASL team. And the San Antonio Scorpions have yet to play a game in a high school stadium. Have. Yet. To. Play. Game. One. You'd be less confident if you knew more about their organization. I think they still play. They're not bound by any confining details like a like and stuff, though. Heard those, too. Ain't seen the evidence yet.
My bad on the Flash. I confused their ownership with Boca's. I'm still not sure the Flash would go USL Pro, but I suppose it's a possibility. I think they would be cautious, though.
I guess I was thinking of the post 2006 MLS. Prior to 2006 there were teams that went belly up and transferred. The MLS was shakey then. But you are right, both Portland and Vancouver entered in 2011; I guess I thought Vancouver entered in 2010. I stand corrected, Sir Kenntomach. The Ottawa Fury deal was announced. I didn't know that it had any contingencies. I suppose it may, but NASL is eager to announce anything that makes them sound more stable as they are on the verge of losing their D2 sanctioning. I would still bet that the next MLS franchise will come in the next 3 years and it will come from one of the following cities: New York, Detroit, Minnesota. Obviously Garber is rooting for NY2 and yes, it hinges upon a stadium deal which is not easy to do in New York. Detroit already has a stadium and has already made application, so I could see them beating NY to the punch. Honestly, Apostolopoulos is simply looking for a tenent. He has a crazy idea on modifying the stadium, but sometimes crazy ideas work. Wilf, in Minnesota, has money and influence. He makes thinks happen for the Vikings and he can make things happen when it comes to a new stadium. Even if an MLS team cohabitating in the stadium with the Vikings is just a ploy, it still brings an MLS team to Minnesota. I don't know any other teams that are closer to applying for a MLS franchise. The Austin Aztex weren't making any big moves until new ownership bought them and moved them to Orlando. They didn't move them to Orlando to stay as a PDL team. Markley has plans to advance them through the divisions. Hey, more power to him. Then look at Hartman's ownership group. Boom, they put together money to start a NASL team from nothing. This is a sign that this is an ownership group with a plan. Some of these PDL and NASL teams have been where they are at for years. They show no signs of advancing beyond their current position. But this is must my opinion....and you know what they say about opinions - Kenntomach has one too. You are right, I don't know much about the San Diego Flash except that Warren Barton seems to be better connecte than most NPSL owners. He just might have the clout to bring them from the NPSL to a higher division. But Kenntomach, don't hold back. Educate us on what you know about the Flash. Right Kenntomach, FC Tucson has only been announced as joining the USL as a PDL team and you haven't seen them play as a PDL team. That is the thing about announcements, they announce it before they do it. It's an official USL press release though. The rumor on the USL Pro team in Phoenix is just a rumor at this point with no details and no official announcement. The Arizona Sahuros still play, but only as a scrimmage team. They are no longer in the NPSL. In fact, they don't even think they have a roster of more than 15 players. And I love it when Kenntomach responds like this because it gives me an opportunity to bring up my favorite subject with regards to the size of the various leagues. (Sometimes I just like saying it just to allow Kenntomach to play the role of contrarian) I think NASL will lose it's D2 sanctioning and they will move to D3 with the USL Pro. MLS needs to limit the number of teams in D1. In order to continue to grow the MLS, they should start an MLS2 sanctioned in D2. This will allow them to continue to grow in the smaller markets. It will also allow them to implement promotion/relegation. I think the MLS could run a D2 league more successfully than either the USL or NASL.
Detroit and Minnesota might be in the cards down the road, but they aren't happening in the next three years. New York is only a little better, and that because there is a lot of desire for a second franchise in that market, plus the sentimental push to revive the Cosmos brand. On the other hand, most of the time crazy is just crazy. Trust me, the idea that came out a few months ago for modifying the stadium is a complete non-starter. It might be ok for generating a headline or two, but it will never be built. Right now, there just aren't any front runners. It all depends on who steps forward, and right now it could come from virtually anywhere.
I'm ignoring your pissing match with Kenn to focus on your thee important stuff you said. I agree that unless something major happens, NASL may be track to lose its sanctioning. They seem to have no real plan to expand in the US, which is one of the conditions set forth last year. But I don't know if they will continue at the D3 level. In all honesty, if there is no league that meets D2 standards, how long will it take to implement stricter (or any) standards for D3? MLS probably could run a D2 league better than anybody else. Then again, it could be a half a joke like the NBA-DL. Compared to the independently run AHL and MiLB(s), the NBA-DL is a joke. It's as half assed as a minor league can be. Major leagues do not necessarily care about their minor league's success; they are focused more on developing stars. Say it with me kinds, "NEVER GONNA HAPPEN."
Tampa Bay and Miami didn't really go "belly up," but I guess you could classify them as such. The league couldn't find investors for Tampa Bay and Horowitz threw in the towel. And the only transfer was San Jose to Houston in 2006. MLS was shaky ten years ago this month. Actually last month. Those first two moves and the creation of SUM and tying the MLS TV rights to the World Cup probably saved the thing. Oh, I knew it was announced. But as they said last June when it was announced, "The club is scheduled to hit the pitch in 2013, but 2014 is more realistic with legal challenges delaying the Lansdowne redevelopment project."(Link) As of yesterday, there was still no movement, but the city is accepting bids for the construction work until March 1. Seems as though time is running out for 2013, but there's no huge impetus to get Ottawa in the NASL for 2013 as they're not losing a team to MLS like they were this year. No, they're safer now than they were a year ago. They're not "on the verge" of losing it. They were provisionally sanctioned for 2012 back in November and have been included in this year's US Open Cup. It was early last year when they had sanctioning, then had it taken away, then got it back. And they are far more stable than they were a year ago, when they hadn't actually played a game as a league. Now they have, and they didn't have anybody fold and everybody's back and they have an expansion team to replace Montreal. I'd say unless you bet New York, you're going to be disappointed. And sometimes....they don't. Do you know what "ploy" means? Wilf floated the idea of an MLS team to make a new stadium more palatable to taxpayers. The same thing happened in Seattle, and it took another seven years before there was a team there. I don't believe Wilf actually intends to have an MLS team. And there are problems with the current plan for the Vikings to play at TCF Bank Stadium for three years while they build a new stadium on the site of the Metrodome. That deal isn't done yet, by a long shot. And Salt Lake City came completely out of nowhere in 2004. They're not a PDL team. Who's Markley? This made me laugh. Have you seen their plan? Using the profits from the soccer team to fund a park for disabled kids? As honorable as that is, there aren't likely to be profits from their NASL team. Also putting together an NASL team from nothing: Jeff Cooper. Boom. Do they have to? Is that the whole deal? Advancing up a level? I guess you haven't seen what happens to most teams that do that. I have. At least I know what divisions people currently play in. I told you, I was thinking of Boca. But one of the key guys with the Flash is in the same mold as Yan Skwara. Yan's antics may predate you, but Google him. Nor has anybody. Unless they went to Casa Grande last night and saw them lose 2-1 to the Revs. And I wasn't talking about having not seen the evidence of FCT. I was talking about the evidence of a USL Pro team in Phoenix. Really? Thanks. I had no idea. Oh, they're real. They're in. We'll see what happens. It came from this story in the Republic. Well, it ain't happening this April, not in USL Pro. And no details have been announced in the coming weeks. It's been almost 20 weeks since that story was published. They seem to rise and fall, but they've been around in one form or another since 1990. I don't know what their plans are. No, they won't. Complete and utter non-starter. First off, they're unlikely to lose their sanctioning at this point. Secondly, there are too many bridges burned for them to either move in with USL Pro and too many egos involved for them to be D3. Complete and utter non-starter. Let me guess...here's where you bring up some supposed "rule" that leagues can't have more than 20 teams, even though there is no such "rule," right? FIFA Congress passed a resolution six years ago that leagues couldn't have more than 18 teams. How's that working out? There is no rule that leagues can't be bigger than 20 teams. There's probably a practical limit to the number of teams MLS can have, for a lot of reasons. But there's no statutory limit. And I know what's coming next.... We will go back to the moon before there's promotion and relegation between division one and division two in this country. Perhaps, though it would be in addition to what they currently do, instead of being what they do full-time.
NASL will lose its D2 sanctioning. If not in 2013, then in 2014. I don't anticipate the USSF changing it's standards for D2. I don't anticipate the USSF imposing standards stricter standards on D3 if there is no stable D2 league. If they did, they would simply cause the D3 teams to retreat to D4. I do not anticipate any cooperation between NASL and the USL. NASL was revived out of an owners rebellion in the USL. NASL is trying to adhere to the D2 standards while USL is comfortable moving to D3 and trying to win with volume. Honestly, I don't know where the NASL revenue comes from to maintain these D2 standards. There is almost no TV coverage and no merchandising. Ticket sales alone are going to pay for D2? Not in the US. Many people don't even know about NASL. Both getting on the FIFA schedule and promotion/relegation are things that Garber has mentioned in some of his talks. I think they will eventually happen, but not for a very long time. So say it with me, "OUR CHILDREN WILL SEE PROMOTION/RELEGATION IN THE MLS". Does this mean that we are now in a pissing match now? Personally, I disagree with the FIFA calendar and I think MLS should stay on their own calendar, but I would like to see an MLS2 with promotion/relegation between MLS1 and MLS2. Furthermore, I think an MLS2 would be an excellent way for the MLS to develop D1 teams.
We'll see. This is the year where they either step up and show they're really going to do D2 better than it's been done, or show that they're just like the last bunch. But it's too early to do anything but pull a prediction like that out of the air. I would hope not. Though they have shown a willingness to be flexible. It's not quite that simple. Most of D3 is either meeting or close to meeting the current D2 standards except for owner financial wherewithal. And they won't "simply retreat to D4," which is the PDL. Nope. Our children may see us go back to the moon. I'm hoping my kids see us go to Mars. I'm not optimistic about pro/rel in the next 30 years. And, for the kabillionth time, it's not "The Major League Soccer." That's about the only way it'll happen, but it would require finding 10 or so owners who are interested in MLS but okay with maybe not being in MLS. Right now, MLS2 is a concept. Nothing more. Wouldn't it be "the MLS2?" What prospective D1 markets are out there that need to be "developed," do you think? Why make the investment in MLS2 if you've already either plucked the viable fruit or you have someone else doing the developing for you already? It's like the NFL starting its own developmental league, which nitwits who follow the UFL insist has to happen. Why make that investment if colleges are already doing player development for you and you have no lack of people coming down the pike? And - this is the big one, as far as the NFL is concerned - you have no real need to expand and no serious competitor likely to go into markets you currently don't have? MLS probably doesn't need 30 teams. And no one's going to come along who's a viable competitor because no one has the stomach to make the investments and ride out the inevitable losses like the Anschutzes and Krafts and Hunts did for years. Those guys have helped foster a climate where men's outdoor pro league soccer isn't the complete head-scratching investment it once was, but no one's going to run out and start a competing D1 league. You see how hard it is to create a D2 league.
I didn't know that you had a seat on the USSF Board to make so a bold promise. The Fact of the matter is No One can honestly say for a fact NASL will lose sanctioning or that NASL will be Suceed. All we can do is wait and see. As for USL-Pro nobody can promise that all the Teams in USL-pro will be around or that USSF won't put stricter Rules on D3. So if you are on the USSF board expain how you know this so called fact u made.
The NBA The NFL The NHL The UFL The NLL Not the MLB Not the MLS Not the NASCAR Not the MLL? Ok I am iffy on "the Major Lacross League"
I think that it depends on what standard they fail to meet. Traffic and the league controlling multiple teams is a big no-no; going MLS LLC style is not something NASL wants so unless they find new owners the USSF may not give NASL sanctioning. The 75% mark, I think that can be waived temporarily, worst case they won't allow Ottawa to join the league until more American teams are found. The 3 different USA time zones is very dumb in my opinion, hopefully that one can be negotiable, I mean including non-American teams the NASL already cover 4 time zones. Also USSF wants a stable D2 yet they want to force more travel, WTF? Stadium requirements, I am not sure how many teams do not meet this standard yet. This may also be a deal breaker.
I think all are very workable. 1. It looks like Traffic will have a team off their books very shortly, if the Strikers rumor is true. 2. I think USSF might be waiver it if the NASL shows movement in that department. And if the rumor is true that their are 4 cities that are very close to joining with in the next 3 years that are not San Antonio and Ottawa, then i think the NASL is good. 3. If one of the rumored four cities happen to be in mountain or pacific time then we can put a check mark there. 4. Tampa, San Antonio, and Edmonton are the only 3 current teams that are not with in the soccer stadium boundaries but are working on it as we speak. San Antonio is schedule to start construction this spring, Tampa is looking to renovate their current baseball stadium as an option, and Edmonton is working on the Women's world cup money. Now as we all know nothing is fact but even if a few of these items happen then that is a positive. Another note is that attendance will be very interesting this year. With Montreal moving to MLS we must remember to look at the league avg. without Montreal. So here is to the hope that both NASL and USL-Pro find their ways of success.
While everything you say about the NBA-DL is true, I'm not sure that it belongs in a discussion of a second division in soccer, or should even be compared to other pro sports' minor leagues. The NBA-DL is exactly as half-assed as you say because its purpose is so narrow, and poorly defined. It isn't, and never will be, the primary player-development scheme for the league. It doesn't (as I wish it would) compete with colleges for potential NBA talent, it's really just a safety net for a few players who may have fallen through the NCAA cracks for whatever reason, or as a last chance for late bloomers. So few players actually make the jump from NBA-DL to an NBA starting lineup that they can't even credibly market the teams as having future NBA stars. Any such MLS D-League would provide players with a true alternative to college soccer, and for that reason alone almost couldn't duplicate the ineptitude that is the NBA-DL.
Because it's not the Major Lacrosse League. It's Major League Lacrosse. "The MLL" would be fine if it were "The Major Lacrosse League" ("the League") like "The NBA" ("the association") and "The NHL" ("the league.") But "Major League" is an adjective describing the level of play. You don't even say "The MiLB," which would be "The Minor League Baseball." No one even says "MiLB." They just say "the minors."
The question is how long they'll led multiple ownership go on, and to what level. USSF would be fairly hypocritical to allow it to continue in MLS for as long as they have and not give the NASL a reasonable timeframe. I would imagine a waiver. They have to add teams anyway, per the standards. Edmonton, for one. The renderings of the Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium renovations would make it sweet. Tampa Bay has the capacity and such, but they can't play in that place on that side of the Bay forever (that has nothing to do with the USSF standards). They're going to expand WakeMed Soccer Park. I think the NASL will be okay with stadiums, outside of Edmonton, which is a problem.
They don't even use it well. I'm not sure why the NBA wanted to have a league in the first place, other than to potentially have minor league basketball under their control, too. They were willing to buy Isiah Thomas' CBA to make that happen, they just didn't meet Zeke's price (in just one of his poor decisions). Do you remember how bad the D-League was when it first started? Before they ate a little crow and figured out maybe they should take in some existing teams? Those first few years were horrid compared to what the D-League is today. And an MLS D-League would almost not only have to compete with college soccer - it would almost have to compete with college. For someone who is going to forgo college and go to MLS (whether with a generation adidas contract or not), that's one thing. But to forgo college to knock around the D-League, with not only no guarantee you're going to move up, but not even MLS money and not the benefits of being in college? Harder sell.
This has "idea by committee" written all over it. I can see a cadre of NBA owners wanting a setup in which guys could bypass college, but not have to play on an NBA roster until he's ready. After all, why make a kid go to college who has no business pretending to be a student? That's a good idea. I can also see another group of owners who don't want to spend the money, since they can have all the players they want for free. And then a third group who just doesn't want to think too much about it, or upset the sweet deal they have with the NCAA. What you have here is a classic case of failure by compromise. I don't know that this is true, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't. Yes, it was bad. And in terms of return on investment, it isn't all that much better today, but it does look a whole lot less of a complete clustermuck than it used to. True, but one major difference is that there are a lot fewer schools willing to fudge their entrance requirements (and retention standards) for soccer players than basketball players. As a result, in a lot of cases, this decision has already been made for them, making the field of potential candidates that much bigger.