So after six games what have we learned about Klinsmann?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by BennyScrap, Nov 11, 2011.

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  1. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Which is irrelevant to the discussion, since my initial point was:
    x,y and z are good enough to be playing at a bigger club

    Referring to a post which stated "x, y and z could play for bigger teams, but are not playing for bigger teams because of a stigma".

    I did not say they are good enough to move, in fact I gave a number of reasons why they are stuck. And I don't believe in a stigma when it comes to individual players.

    Obviously as long as a player is not bought, he's not good enough to be bought. And as long as player isn't bought, he is stuck.

    To which I can just as well reply: players who are good enough to play at bigger clubs, get stuck all the time...

    As for Dempsey: it wasn't just one career choice. He extended his contract twice. So that's at least three career choices. Not to mention the actual contracts and their clauses.
     
  2. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Interesting... so do you think it is the big transfer fee's (for who they are) that are tied to Dempsey and IMO Landon, that scare decent sized clubs from picking them up?
     
  3. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    I've posted a number of factors that come into play. Unless a big club really needs a short term solution, there are -in my opinion- too many reasons why they should not and will not opt for LD or CD.
    Obviously the financial impact plays a big part in almost every transfer, apart from the bids that Manchester City puts in. Which is not to say even at a lower transfer fee clubs would put in a bid for these players.
    I can imagine Juventus would find it difficult to offer Dempsey a salary similar to his at Fulham. I can imagine Fulham does not want to sell Dempsey to a team in the same league. I can imagine clubs aren't as interested in players who regularly have to travel up 'n down to North America. Both CD and LD are old. They won't improve a lot. They can't be sold to make a profit. They block younger players. When they don't become lock starters, they'll be 29 year old bench warmers. They're not homegrown players - which in EPL is quite an issue. Etc.

    Unless I really needed their specific talents (ie. because of injuries) and there would be no other available options, I would consider trying to acquire their services.
     
  4. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I'll be danged, tell that to Apple. They were once in a garage!
     
  5. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    So, they are good enough to play for the big clubs, but not move to the big clubs because of their career choices, right?

    I agreed your reasons may make transfers more difficult, but most were not related to career choices.

    No. If he's not bought he's not wanted enough - maybe because he's not good enough, maybe not.

    Not if they're wanted enough.

    Anyway, this conversation is not wanted enough by me anymore (and probably not good enough for most), so I will stop it from my end.
     
  6. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    a player is never stuck since contracts are for specific times/term of service. When that expires he is free to re-sign or opt out. Some are year to year contracts so every year there is a choice. If you think about it when a player is sold to another club for X number of money they are also obligated to compensating team for the remainder of that contract since quite often and perhaps always the remainder is inclusive. Meaning the initial team hiring the player is responsible for those prorated terms even if that player is sold. So the transfer fee can get astronomical, making them "stuck". However "Stuck" is relative.
    I would say that the term Stuck, is thus relative! See TEVEZ for example.
     
  7. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    As I had stated in the rest of the post that you didn't quote, Bob Bradley's tactics weren't perfect, and while we were successful from an attacking standpoint, we were pretty abysmal from a defensive stand point. I've said several times in this thread that keeping more possession simply to manage the game and keep our opponent from having the ball, thus, reducing their chances of exposing our backline, would have been a good idea. However, Bob's way of managing the game when we were ahead was to boot the ball up the field and reorganize defensively. This became detrimental when our backline was severely thinned by injuries, and became even worse with the loss of Charlie Davies and the use of Jonathan Bornstein.

    What I'm saying here is that our problem wasn't our attack under Bob. The problem was that we didn't do enough to shield our backline. Now, Juergen's possession-based attack and pressing has improved our defense simply because the opponent is getting less of the ball, and having Kyle Beckerman or Maurice Edu in front of our backline has surely helped, but the problem is that our attack has been a lot less succesful. It's pretty much the opposite.

    Juergen needs to keep our style of attack the same, but make a few tactical tweaks. Possess with the ball and press without to keep our opponent from having a lot of the ball, giving them less chance to expose the backline. Don't try to break the opponent down slowly from the back - transition quick and expose spaces left from their previous attack.
     
  8. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I agree somewhat. At 28 and 29, both are getting closer to the end rather the beginning of their careers.

    But each still have a good amount of time left, IMO. Donovan because of how he takes care of his body, and Dempsey also that, and IMO his skills are getting sharper with time (although losing pace, but he has never been about that).

    For me it's the age:price ratio. They may not be wroth it considering their age. Not to mention the idea they are 'american' and are an unexplored option. When was the last time a decently aged american was brought in to help a big club team?

    Our guys at their age are untested at the high levels.

    Edit: LOL at it making the ':' and "p" into a sticking out tongue face instead of the price to ratio.
     
  9. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/13/ghana-counter-attacking/

    This is an interesting article by Zonal Marking on Ghana, who are going through the same changes we are - dealing with being a more proactive team that tries to take control of the match.

    One of the key points in the article is teasing the opponent with the ball, mostly by switching the point of attack quickly to drag the opponent from side to side, or moving it back to the defense in order to draw undisciplined opponents up the field, creating space in behind. These are principles that you don't have to be a possession side to follow. It generally comes when you're up against a team that drops deep and concedes less space in their own half.

    The penalty in the Slovenia match was down to this kind of ball movement. Getting it from one flank to another to create spaces. The Slovenian backline was pulled over, and either their right back was too slow to shift over with them, or the rest of the backline was to slow to shift back to their right, but it created a gap between the fullback and centerback that Fabian Johnson exploited.

    Again, you don't need to be a possession side to do these things. You just need to be smart with ball movement and off the ball movement. We're going to face a lot of defenses that sit deep in CONCACAF, so we have to follow these principles. That said, we shouldn't lose our counter-attacking verve.

    -Press and possess, but only to manage the game
    -Move the ball to create/exploit space
    -Move players to create/exploit space
     
  10. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    No one ever said we'd lose our 'counter attacking edge' by playing a more possession oriented style. I don't know why people fear that so much.
     
  11. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know I do not understand that either. First of all, possession is movement and it is teasing the opponent with the ball. Possession without a purpose is self defeating and No team plays such a game. The old tactic of going to a corner and trying to hold the ball with the intent of wasting seconds is NOT possession. It is a dumb ploy and has never served the intended purpose. Possession is a balanced attack, a balanced defense with the intent of keeping the ball in our possession moving forward and changing left to right to force the defense to make a choice in pursuing or falling back to play a defensive zone. If they play zone and are not playing pursuing football we can attack and withdraw and make end runs at will....If they pursue then a side opens up giving our trailing players a chance to overrun and attack virtually uncontested. Also shooting from distance with good placement using defensive players to shield the shot from the keeper will keep a bunker honest. Not a single reason why possession would keep us from a rapid counter attack especially if we are already in the opponents half. At least that is how understand it. Who knows, I am probably all wet.
     
  12. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The whole point of Klinsmann's "possession" tactics as they've played out so far has been to use two defensive mids who rarely get involved in attack or spark transition play; they just sit in place and push short square balls around while the opposing defense settles in. He benched our best two-way (and overall) center mids for 5 of the first 6 games of his tenure.

    Combine that with using an inexperienced d-mid on the wing, it really handcuffs any transition game we had before. The only counter-attack game we've had under Klinsmann is crossing our fingers and hoping Brek Shea dribbles around 6 guys.

    All you guys are showing is that you have no understanding of the game outside of the silly cliches Klinsmann peddles.
     
    SPA2TACU5 repped this.
  13. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See that is not at all OK. So we don't understand. Is that your opinion or do you know that for sure?? The fact that we see something other than yourself makes us what? Incapable of understanding soccer or?? Again what does that last comment add to the conversation? Plain argumentative and confrontational...uncool
    As a matter of fact the post prior in which I described possession as to how I see it, is how I was taught the game from the time I was old enough to see beyond the floor and my feet...but I know that was in a different time in a different game...however the more things change the more they remain the same.....
     
  14. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    I've seen the US play this way many times.

    Nobody thinks this is possession soccer. It serves it's purpose - more often than not - of wasting valuable seconds at the end of the game. It's not like teams start using it at the 60th minute. It's a current tactic employed by some of the best teams in the world when they're holding onto a slim lead in the waning moments.

    The problem is when your attacks aren't dangerous and you just withdraw to hang onto the ball, there's no incentive for the defense to pursue. You need some creativity and high soccer IQ from more than a couple of players.

    Other than the fact that "counter" implies we didn't have possession to begin with, it's hard to have a rapid counter attack when we're already in their half. Maybe a mini counter when we steal the ball from them in their half, kind of like what Ghana did to us on both goals in the WC.
     
  15. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    It's all about transition. We're in a 'rebuilding' period as they say in american sports.

    Once we get a grip on holding and possessing the ball better, that will add even more to all sides of our game.

    Betters skills at possessing the ball will give us the ability to counter attack sharper than before.
     
  16. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any team will lose the ball, I would rather loose it with an errant pass on their side of the field then pursue intercept and counter from there in lieu of deep within our box??? That is what Barcelona does. I am not saying we are going to play like Barcelona but one should aspire to get better not say lets go back to what we do best. Blast it up hope we control and say we broke fast and countered with numbers?? I keep hearing we scored lots but I remember differently. Only the very worst teams we played every resulted in a high scoreline?.I remember very few blowouts.
     
  17. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    I think Adiaga's main point was JK's possession tactics suck. Kyle Beckerman doing a few simple sideways passes and nobody in attack is not going to make us better even if we keep the ball a bit longer.

    As others have said - we should be rebuilding from the youth levels and the senior team will eventually reap the rewards.
     
  18. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    Nobody has described time wasting as possession.

    "Blast it up" :rolleyes:

    There aren't a whole lot of blowouts in international soccer except when teams are playing against "the very worst teams."
     
  19. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I don't understand why people think his 'style' will payoff right away (not you necessarily ebbro)?

    It takes time. It takes 'geling' on the part of the guys that Beckerman does his 'sideways' passes to, to create. That takes chemistry.


    There was something there between Donovan and Torres and Shea vs. Mexico.

    It just will take time to see how we progress in this system (aka we won't see us completely make this style our bitch after 6-7 games). I am confident though it is for the best as we have guys who will do well under this style of play.
     
  20. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    I'm not sure anyone thinks his style will payoff right away. The question is will it payoff in time for the WC qualifiers? Or the WC? Would time now be better spent tweaking this team and saving more radical philosophical changes for the youth teams? In a generation or two you may have this possession style. That is if JK knows how to implement it.
     
  21. ATLGunner

    ATLGunner Member

    May 8, 2005
    Atlanta
    I think this is the primary argument and a legitimate one. It's pretty obvious we need to be implementing these changes at the youth level.

    However, some think it's time to implement it at the MNT level, some don't. I personally think this isn't the best way to implement our talent pool at the time, that we've overachieved in the past and that we are/will see our limitations under JK.

    I think eventually we will get there, but I think it will be after a generation or two and that we will suffer at the MNT because of a longer transition than JK believes.

    We simply don't have enough players with the ideas/first touch/speed of thought Klinsi needs. That's why, to me, a lot of what we've done has been empty possession.

    I think Klinsi made adjustments in the Slovakia game which I hope he considers going forward. We can still try to modernize our side, but I don't think we can make the leap Klinsi first expected.
     
  22. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good post, some see it as a disaster some have hope for something better. Some want possession as a mere holding technique after we get a lead but how is that different than what we are accusing Klinsmann of doing now. Aimless passing and hanging on to the ball??? So we want to go back to defending and fast breaking on a counter. Even a counter requires a few quick passes to get it into the net. Before we could not do that (possession time wasting) at all. We simply booted the ball up field over and over and they (opponents) sat and waited and attacked us over and over again. That is not a good international game. I think it is time we implemented a more progressive game some do not and that is A-OK.
     
  23. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    which looks like that is the plan, but at some point these youths will be joining a senior team that may not be playing the way they have been training, at some point we are going to have to bite the bullet and change the senior game, the question is when and how.
     
  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look at Klinsman’s description of his possession based attacking style, “Building our attack from the backline via possession, increasing speed and tempo when we move up the field with aggressive attacks via the wings in combination with integrated wingbacks”, and ask the question which of our key players are not playing for clubs that play in the manner proposed by Klinsman?

    Who is playing for a direct attack club that we think will have a dificult time transitioning to the new USMNT style?
     
  25. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    to whom was Beckerman making those sideways passes and what happened after??
     

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