Slaminsams, its just a hypothetical discussion based on applying these coefficients to seedings like they do in Europe. Have a look at their coefficient system here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uefa_coefficients#Current_ranking This is what I was trying to emulate. In my theoretical setup (which isn't practical) Canada had to have at least as many spots as the countries below it -- US, Honduras, CFU etc.
Got bored and made a wiki-style graph of the proposed application of the coefficient I was talking about, with a couple of the revisions. http://i.imgur.com/6jslx.jpg Link has the full version, but its resized here: Only the top 6 rated leagues' champions would go straight into the groups with this formulation.
After 2010-11 Finals, first leg Code: Federation Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 18.500 61.125 Honduras 12.750 8.333 7.833 28.917 Canada 16.500 0.500 11.500 28.500 United States 4.625 8.375 11.125 24.125 CFU 9.167 8.000 5.833 23.000 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 9.750 18.667 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 18.583 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 5.250 16.250 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 4.000 12.750 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 20.1667 73.2147 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 14.1667 36.7980 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 16.1667 35.5834 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 6.6111 34.6111 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 18.2500 32.2117 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 7.9444 30.6400 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 28.1667 28.1667 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 13.7083 24.4721 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 12.6111 22.8611 Salt Lake 0.0000 0.0000 21.7083 21.7083 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 7.7500 14.4167 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 9.8333 9.8333 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.9444 8.0000 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 5.7083 5.7083 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 3.3333 3.3333 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400
You give clubs 0 if they weren't in the Champions League that season. Note that UEFA gives clubs 20% of their country's coefficient every season plus the points if any they earned from the Champions League and/or Europa League.
Metro, I put that table onto my wiki user page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Themodelcitizen just about to edit in the updated US info. Maybe after this year's qualifiers run I'll do a sample draw with it and see what kind qualifiers it would throw up. I tweaked it so that the top two have 4 overall spots, ideally allowing the US to challenge for that second spot and 4 overall teams. I would also expect Canada to drop into a more reasonable spot and have 1 or 2 overall teams, although I could see us always being a "special case" with only 1 spot as we don't have a proper league that qualifies teams.
Even if RSL wins the game (a draw would make them champions) Canada would still be #3 and the USA #4 (I think). Honduras would still be #2 and would deserve 4 spots in your sample draw. Edit: is it my computer or you can't read some of the info on your table. It is blacked out.
Updated coefficients based on advancement through rounds: 2010-11 Pts/Teams Mex 9/4* USA 5/4* CR 2/2 Can 1/1 Carib 2/3 Hon 2/3 ES 1/2 Guat 0/2 Panama 0/3 Total in new format Pts/Teams Mex 34/12* Carib 9/9 Can 3/3 Hon 6/7 USA 8/12* Panama 4/7 CR 2/7 ES 1/6 Guat 1/6 Bel 0/1 Nic 0/1 *Can still gain points this year. One point for each team that makes it out of a round. The US or Mexico will end with one more point but that won't change their places in the rankings. As I have mentioned earlier in the thread this appears to be what they are basing replacement team decisions on as it fits exactly with the previous decisions they've made. It should also be noted that CONCACAF has assigned a set number of teams based on region as well. So, if a Central American country can't provide a team the open slot goes to another Central American country. It's possible, though not likely, that they are keeping track of how each region performs as well. Current allocations: Mexico 2, 2 US 2, 2 Honduras 1, 1 Panama 1, 1 Costa Rica 1, 1 Guatemala 1, 1 CFU 0, 3 El Salvador 0, 2 Canada 0, 1 Nicaragua 0, 1 Belize 0, 1 So, we have North America 4, 5 Central America 4, 8 CFU 0, 3 I have no idea what they are going to do. They're not going to exclude any nation, although they may have to replace some as they've done in the past for various reasons. Strong arguments that El Salvador and Guatemala do not deserve two entries. Costa Rica is on the edge as well. The US has redeemed itself this year and will probably keep four partially due to financial reasons. I'd really like to see an extra Caribbean team and Honduras has done well, too. What I would do is give one of El Salvador's slots to Honduras and give Guatemala's group slot to the Caribbean.
Here's the thing, though. Historically, the MLS Cup runner-up has been the worst-performing US representative. If the MLS Cup runner-up hadn't been in the last three tournaments, the US would currently have a coefficient somewhere around 32--an easy second place. By the same token, the two #3 teams Honduras has sent have performed poorly--this year, knocked out in the prelims by Toronto, last year coming last in their group. If you sent another, worse team in their place, their rating would almost certainly drop--just adding the third team dropped it significantly. The bottom line is, with a smaller tournament and less history, I don't think the UEFA system of directly allocating tournament berths makes sense for CONCACAF.
That is why FIFA uses 5 year windows, we are only finishing our 3rd, by 2013 most contries will be around where they deserve to be.
I agree that it isn't practical, and I meant that the US would gradually move into the top 2/3 over the space of a few more seasons. The way they're doing it now seems fine (a rarity for CONCACAF)
Its a cool concept but all the Canadian teams and the best performing Caribbean team (Puerto Rico) play within the U.S. Soccer Pyramid. That should certainly count for something. If Monaco were to win the Champions League would that coefficient benefit Monaco's coefficient or France's Coefficient. Just something to think about, I know these are just for fun. The U.S. should definitely change the MLS Cup loser spot to 2nd in the SS race or when unbalanced schedules come up to the opposite conference winner.
Bad comparison. Monaco doesn't have a league, coefficient, or even a football association. AS Monaco is 100% French. Now if FC Vaduz from Liechtenstein wins the Europa League it would be of no benefit to the Swiss Football Pyramid.
The real problem with the league co-efficient, strictly speaking on rating the strengths of the leagues in CONCACAF by their CCL performances, is that the business model of MLS enforcing parity across the board with the salary cap and single entity structure isn't taken into consideration. The worst club at the top level of Honduras is far worse than its top club because of the value of their roster. Since MLS runs on a salary cap you have much more even teams top to bottom. There really isn't a way to quantify something like that, that I can think of. I know that isn't REALLY what this is for, but if this is modeled after the UEFA co-efficients (in which all clubs operate as single entity businesses, uniformly) then it really isn't accurate.
The coefficient, measures the top teams from each league, so you are correct, leagues vary from competitive (all teams are close to each other) to leagues with great 2-4 top teams and the rest are average-bad teams. Honduras like you say is in this camp, they have 2 teams that have done well in the CCL, but their 3rd team is usually bad. At the end as Honduras earns a 4th spot, their ranking will suffer and they will fall down the table. Realistically the only consistent league in the CCL is the Mexican league with all their teams making it past the group. MLS has not been as consistent as one would think due to parity. Seattle and RSL had very different results in the CCL.
After 2010-11 CONCACAF Champions League Movement: - Monterrey over Pachuca Code: Federation Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 19.000 61.625 Honduras 12.750 8.333 7.833 28.917 Canada 16.500 0.500 11.500 28.500 United States 4.625 8.375 11.125 24.125 CFU 9.167 8.000 5.833 23.000 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 9.750 18.667 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 18.583 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 5.250 16.250 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 4.000 12.750 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 20.3333 73.3813 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 14.3333 36.9646 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 16.3333 35.7500 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 6.6111 34.6111 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 18.2500 32.2117 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 7.9444 30.6400 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 30.3333 30.3333 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 13.7083 24.4721 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 12.6111 22.8611 Salt Lake 0.0000 0.0000 21.7083 21.7083 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 7.7500 14.4167 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 9.8333 9.8333 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.9444 8.0000 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 5.7083 5.7083 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 3.3333 3.3333 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400
If this is modelled on the UEFA coefficient, then why not have clubs who don't participate in a given year get a percentage of the association coefficient. For example, looking at the UEFA coefficient - http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/index.html All the English clubs that didn't participate in 2010/11 got 3.671 points (Everton, Fulham, Newcastle, and even Portsmouth!) Also I notice you don't award any points for preliminary round eliminations, unlike UEFA. Great work BTW!!!
Arsenal, Is there a way to separate CFU and Puerto Rico? I would Imagine PR would have a better score than Canada if they were independent. If it is too much trouble, don't worry about it. I was just wondering.
No problem at all, I've been keeping track of the CFU nations separately since the start. I don't feel like formatting anything, but the totals for the nations are: Puerto Rico - 19.500/8.500/11.000 = 39.000 Trinidad and Tobago - 8.000/7.7500/3.250 = 19.000 Jamaica: 0.000
After 2011-12 Preliminary Round, First Leg: Movement: - Canada over Honduras Code: Federation Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 19.000 0.500 62.125 Canada 16.500 0.500 11.500 1.000 29.500 Honduras 12.750 8.333 7.833 0.333 29.250 United States 4.625 8.375 11.125 0.250 24.375 CFU 9.167 8.000 5.833 0.000 23.000 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 9.750 0.500 19.167 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 0.500 19.083 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 5.250 0.000 16.250 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 4.000 0.500 13.250 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 20.3333 0.0000 73.3813 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 0.0000 39.0480 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 14.3333 0.0000 36.9646 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 16.3333 0.0000 35.7500 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 6.6111 0.0000 34.6111 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 18.2500 0.0000 32.2117 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 7.9444 0.0000 30.6400 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 30.3333 0.0000 30.3333 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 0.0000 28.6313 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 13.7083 0.0000 24.4721 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 12.6111 0.0000 22.8611 Salt Lake 0.0000 0.0000 21.7083 0.0000 21.7083 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 7.7500 0.0000 14.4167 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 0.0000 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 0.0000 12.3055 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 0.0000 9.9800 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 9.8333 0.0000 9.8333 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.9444 0.0000 8.0000 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 0.0000 6.7500 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 5.7083 0.0000 5.7083 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 3.3333 0.0000 3.3333 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 0.0000 2.6400
After 2011-12 Preliminary Round Movement: - Santos over Toluca - Monterrey over Puerto Rico - Toronto over Comunicaciones - Real Espana over L.A. Firpo and W Connection - Isidro Metapan over FAS New clubs entering the list: - Los Angeles - Alajuelense - Colorado - Dallas - Morelia - Herediano - Motagua Code: Federation Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 19.000 4.750 66.375 Canada 16.500 0.500 11.500 6.000 34.500 Honduras 12.750 8.333 7.833 3.333 32.250 United States 4.625 8.375 11.125 4.750 28.875 CFU 9.167 8.000 5.833 0.500 23.500 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 9.750 4.750 23.417 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 2.500 21.083 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 5.250 2.500 18.750 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 4.000 2.000 14.750 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 20.3333 0.0000 73.3813 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 1.5833 40.6313 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 16.3333 1.5833 37.3333 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 14.3333 0.0000 36.9646 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 6.6111 0.0000 34.6111 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 18.2500 0.0000 32.2117 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 30.3333 1.5833 31.9166 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 7.9444 0.0000 30.6400 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 0.0000 28.6313 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 13.7083 0.0000 24.4721 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 12.6111 0.0000 22.8611 Salt Lake 0.0000 0.0000 21.7083 0.0000 21.7083 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 7.7500 0.0000 14.4167 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 0.0000 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 0.0000 12.3055 Toronto 0.0000 0.0000 9.8333 2.0000 11.8333 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 0.8333 10.8133 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 0.8333 9.9166 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.9444 0.0000 8.0000 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 1.1111 7.8611 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 0.0000 7.6400 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 5.7083 1.5833 7.2916 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 0.6667 3.8217 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 3.3333 0.0000 3.3333 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 0.0000 2.6400 Alajuelense 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Colorado 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Dallas 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Herediano 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Los Angeles 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Morelia 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.5833 1.5833 Motagua 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 1.1111 1.1111
http://www.hexagonalblog.com/2008/09/developing-concacaf-coefficients-part-2.html Her Arsenal Have you seen this site?