Let's end the Debate (at least for this year): MLS vs Mexican clubs

Discussion in 'CONCACAF' started by gringolimon, Jul 8, 2009.

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  1. sidspaceman

    sidspaceman Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 20, 2002
    AMÉRICA DE CALI
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    It's much more then you like to admit.
     
  2. El Cabrito

    El Cabrito Member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Ca
    1) Is this based on any tangible evidence or just observations? just curious.

    2) Was the purpose of this thread to show the MLS' minimum imporvement? Do you have examples of that?


    What logic is behind this threads premise and "Statistical Analysis?"

    Typically you don't see much argument from Mexican fans when posters have good statistical evidence to backup their claims... see that NoSix and other posters who come up with coeficients for CONCACAF rarely get blasted.
     
  3. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no. it's not. just because you think a few morons and a sock or two represent the standard US fans beliefs about the game doesn't make it so.

    There are a lot more examples of reasonable and rational US posters on the Concacaf boards than Mexican posters. When some idiot American stumbles in here spouting off crap, they're quickly shown the door (by US and non-US posters alike) and rarely return. Non-US trolls are given the longest possible leash imaginable.

    Let's put it this way: if It's called FOOTBALL or getthomas were US fans, they'd both be permanently red carded by now. God knows why they haven't been already anyway...
     
  4. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    @tomwilhelm: WTH. Why are u saying I should be redcarded?

    And you're dead wrong on the percentage of US fans who are reasonable. There are far more ignorant US fan posters than ignorant Mexico fans. We could go back and forth on this all day. The best way to somewhat settle this is to start a poll.
     
  5. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Yep, you do sort of have a point; on this very thread alone, I really am seeing the excuse-making and the whining from people. I stand corrected I guess.

    Let's see how it turns out.
     
  6. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am so dumbfounded that I can't even find the right response...
     
  7. Bujias

    Bujias Member

    May 4, 2007
    Mexico, GDL.
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    This is moronic if you take in account the Superliga, to make it worth anything you can only take the CCL, home and away. O wait.... i forgot MLS has never beaten mexican clubs in Mexico, so it dosnt really matter any club winning aways proves whos better.

    Like you said, in the future things could change, as of right now this ''debate'' is moronic. (you cant call a debate something witch is already decided and proven).

    Keep dreaming little dude, youll see by the end of the CLL what league is the daddy of the area.

    I still dont get where do they get the ideas of things like MLS >= FMF.
     
  8. Socrates_81

    Socrates_81 Red Card

    May 27, 2008
    Blank


    I guess you're part of that 10% aren't you?
     
  9. PARS

    PARS Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 3, 2007
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    CF Rayados de Monterrey
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    You wanted a stats-wise argument... reply to this...

    CCL Last 10 years

    Country-------------Teams in Final------Champions-----2nd
    MEX---------------- 13 ------------------7 -----------6 ---------70%
    CRC---------------- 5 ------------------2 ------------3
    USA ---------------- 1 -----------------1 ------------0 ---------10%
    HON ----------------1 -------------------0 -------------1

    Too long, let's try 5

    CCL Last 5 years

    Country-------------Teams in Final------Champions-----2nd
    MEX---------------- 8 ------------------4 -----------4 --------80% oops, try 15?
    CRC---------------- 2 ------------------1 ------------1
    USA ---------------- 0 -------------------0 ------------0 -------0%
    HON ----------------0 -------------------0 -------------0

    Any trends?

    Oh oh oh, you meant superliga? Fine. impossible to get a trend with only 2 data points but fine...

    Country-------------Teams in Final------Champions-----2nd
    USA ---------------- 3 -------------------1------------2
    MEX---------------- 1 ------------------1 -------------0

    Do these stats on this very disrespected competition warrant your post? I think that stats wise (as you say) you are better off comparing the MLS to the league in Honduras.

    /p
     
  10. Pirru

    Pirru Member+

    Sep 21, 2004
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    PWNED

    just like when William Wallace slits the guys throat
     
  11. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I never questioned the MFL club's success in the past and it's clear dominance in the past over the MLS.

    As of right now, I know Mexican clubs in a serious competition will have a better winning percentage than MLS clubs. Just as it was back in the day when the Mexican NT was the USNT's Daddy. However, that changed over time and I believe this will change over time as well to the point where both league will be even. This is of course won't happen for a very long time (10, 15 yrs, etc.)

    Or is it sooner than we think? Let's end the debate, at least for SuperLiga 2009 and CCL 2009/10.

    Seriously, can we move forward? I feel like this thread is heading backwards.
     
  12. PARS

    PARS Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 3, 2007
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    CF Rayados de Monterrey
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    In the past? This post is in the past, what do you want to look at? 1 year, 2? 3? For all three of these Mexico goes to 100%, can you see a trend? Going form 70% to 80% to 100% this is getting worse for your case the more you stop considering "the past"

    It has changed over time, see above. Trend is against you

    Are you implying that if the US wins CCL and Superliga, that this would be a trend? You need at least 2 data points to try and say something is a trend. But most people laugh at someone calling that a trend.

    Also, I saw some other post where according to you:

    5-1-0 = 5-0-1, at least when you decide to represent this as .500.

    EVERYONE else I know recognizes those records are different, a tie changes so many things for you to not consider it different.

    As a statistician you would die hungry, as a football analyst your odds seems even worse. Why don't you wait until MLS teams win 2 in a row and then re-post this.

    Someone please close this thread it is asenine.

    /p
     
  13. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This post is about this year. How is that the past?

    I never said anything about a trend. If past historical records were going to be taken into account, then there is no reason for a thread of current records to even be considered if that is your argument. But if it is, start up another thread where the debate is about a whole decade and what not. This thread is not it. It's about NOW. Whether MLS is on the same level as the MFL NOW. Not yesterday, not an average of the past 10 years, but NOW.[/QUOTE]

    If we are talking about winning percentage, as in the number of games you "win", then IMO, I do consider 5-1-0 and 5-0-1 the same thing because you won the same amount of games in the same amount of games played. But I'm reasonable and willing to see your point of view . . . so tell me how a tie should be considered in the winning percentage and I'll unbiasedly listen.

    Dude, calm down bro. There is no need to get upset about this. Why can't we talk this thing out and find a solution we all agree upon in order to determine which league performed better in Concacaf International competition this year.
     
  14. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I figured out the correct way of determining the winning percentage when taking into account ties. I appreciate you pointing this out.

    Both leagues have a 3-2-3 record so far. That's a winning percentage of .500
     
  15. PARS

    PARS Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 3, 2007
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    CF Rayados de Monterrey
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Firstly, no one is upset man, take it easy it is just a forum. But your arguments are (in my opinion) very flawed.

    This year? But CCL has not even started or did I miss it? So is this about the future?!?!? you want to have a "stats wise" exchange of ideas before the freaking stats are even in?

    NOW? NOW? ...is there a game on now? I hope it's not tied because then we are in a world of hurt trying to argue anything. Fine, no history (you're starting to sound like a NAD). Not even last year's, hell if FMF beats MLS tomorrow, you can discard the stat on Saturday... So if we are not considering even last year's CCL and we have no stats for the next one, what are we doing? You are going to tell me that if the US wins the CCL, they are suddenly top dog, throwing away everything in the past?

    If you do, as soon as the broadcast ends I am going to say, "that's the past!, what about now?"

    /p

    /p


    If we are talking about winning percentage, as in the number of games you "win", then IMO, I do consider 5-1-0 and 5-0-1 the same thing because you won the same amount of games in the same amount of games played. But I'm reasonable and willing to see your point of view . . . so tell me how a tie should be considered in the winning percentage and I'll unbiasedly listen.

    Dude, calm down bro. There is no need to get upset about this. Why can't we talk this thing out and find a solution we all agree upon in order to determine which league performed better in Concacaf International competition this year.[/QUOTE]
     
  16. elcibernetico24

    Jun 28, 2008
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    you have to understand that he wants to prove that mls and mfl are right now at the same level no matter what,and if they win the prestigious superliga thats gonna prove it, and because RECENT history prove him wrong he doesnt count it,he even ignores the fact that mfl won the last three tourneys in a row,even if MFL wins the next ccl hes gonna be here doing the same, and even when he says that he is neutral, he always favors the usa in many posts and at the end he always says im neutral,what a spazzo.thats why he always says right now, with his way of thinking usa is right now the second best team in the world behind brazil,due to the confed cup,history doesnt count to him not even recent history. hey gringolimon admit you are an american fan its not a crime,just come out of the closet :D
     
  17. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Communication is difficult for retarded people, so I am not surprised in the least bit.


    I think we should stick tomwilhelm and lime in a closet together. They'll find love in no time.
     
  18. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I feel sorry for your wife. I really do mean that.
     
  19. Socrates_81

    Socrates_81 Red Card

    May 27, 2008
    Blank

    Will you stop with your pathetic obsession to prove something to us?

    We've given you too many facts of why RIGHT NOW the FMF is the better league (don't even bring up the past, for your sake). Results speak for themselves. Right now we have Atlanta going to the club world cup because they beat another Mexican team to get their. 3 Mexican teams in the semis speaks volumes. Give it a rest.

    World leagues don't revolve around SuperLiga, a preseason mini cup from Mexico's eyes and rightly so.
     
  20. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    You feel sorry for a woman whose athletic trophy case puts mine and yours to shame? Who grew up on more land than you and I did combined?

    Anyway, it's obvious you're cracking on the inside. Just close these threads and get some sleep. You've embarrassed yourself enough.
     
  21. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Really do.
     
  22. sidspaceman

    sidspaceman Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 20, 2002
    AMÉRICA DE CALI
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    No need for personal attacks guys.
     
  23. oscar_in_fw

    oscar_in_fw Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Kansas City
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I won't start considering MLS the equal as FMF until MLS teams start winning away games in Mexico, at least occasionally. It's not likely to happen anytime soon either given MLS salary constraints compared to FMF.

    Superliga is pretty meaningless but I expect it to continue for as long as it is a decent moneymaker for FMF, MLS, and the TV folks.
     
  24. City Dave

    City Dave Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    3-2-3 does not equal 50% winning percentage. Wins/games played X 100.

    As for the knockout portion. Are you counting games that end in PKs as ties?
     
  25. gringolimon

    gringolimon Member

    Club Bolívar
    Bolivia
    Sep 12, 2007
    White Plains, NY
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    No I'm counting games that end in PKs as a win for whomever won the PKS.

    As far as the formula wins/games played x 100, this doesn't really consider ties as it just groups them along with the loses. Thanks to PARS bringing it up and after researching a bit on how other leagues (i.e. nfl) address this problem, I will count it as a half win (.5). IMO, I think that's just.
     

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