Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 You want to know the truth...I think players that are in Europe don't play as well because they are playing with a bunch of robotic Europeans and under strict tactical discipline. They lose a bit of the Latin flair and trickiness. Europe is good for these guys to make money, and for their development as professionals, NOT for developing their skill. Look at Ulises de la Cruz for a textbook example of what happens to a player that spends too long over there. That guy used to have dazzling skill.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 our guys were just jerkin off instead of playing, hopefully our boys can pull it together and score a win in Rio.....that would be a HUGE boost of confidence, especially if it happens late in the game, we MUST play to win
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 It's a serious argument. You can't discard it simply by responding "you gotta be kidding...". I can give plenty of examples of players whose individual skills appeared to decline after playing in Europe. Again, keeping in the context of my post, I can outline the advantages of playing in Europe - particularly in the sense of professionalism, conditioning, and experience. However, in terms of skill - dribbling, passing, technique, which are the hallmarks of the South American player, I would argue that Europe can be damaging due to the completely different factors that shape the game over there.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 Please argue...and I will rebuttle in full with names like Messi, Pizarro, Crespo, Kaka, Saviola, Ronaldinho, Castillo, Pardo, Diego....all players that play in Europe. One thing is that a player might be getting old or that feels out of touch with the league and therefore fails, but to lose skill and become "less graceful". PLEASE!!! How about Europeans in Europe? Scheinsteiger, Philip Lahm, Luca Toni, Frank Lampard, Guti, Morrientes, Xavi, Deco, Owen, Henry, Zidane, Figo, Ribery, C Ronaldo (this guy could go on either list) Robben, Sneider, Van Nistleroy...all great players with wonderful touches and a beautiful control of the ball. Players that fail in Europe fail because they are not up to calibre, it's not the other way around. So please...argue. I wait in anticipation.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 no insults pls more infraction like that can get you rights to this place restricted! Manolo is the oldest and most serious poster I seen here- welcome back manolo.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 My apologies, though it was not an insult - but I now beg to question; So you are saying it would have been ok if he was a newbie???
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 According to his club,el man esta instransferable hasta December.Lets wait and see till then.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 You got to understand that most of us are really pist off right about now and don't want nothing more than to burn Suarez ALIVE. And yeah welcome back viejo Manolo.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 te entiendo! pero por que un poster tiene que paga la bronca?! back to futbol: lo que no entiendo es por que culpas a Suarez....la maldita pel;ota no entro y punto, uds tenian mas oportunidades, Suarez logro una alineacion que aporto muchas y claras oportuinidades de gol pero no se dio...a veces la suerte ayuda y no se dio esta vez.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 Papa,no es la primera,la secunda,ni la tercera ocasion que suarez nos ha costado los partidos por cambios horribles que nunca le han funcionado.Y aparte de eso el sigue llamando jugadores que nunca han aportado nada a la seles,habiendo sin numeros jugadores que estan llamando selecion desde hace rato.Dejando afuera en especial a Felipe Caicedo.Yo no solo lo culpo a Suarez por este partido,a mi nunca desde que comenzo a dirgir a la sele me a convencido,porque en realidad nunca a hecho nada.Bolillo le entrego la sele a la mesa puesta.Y perder en Quito contra la vinotinto,no es perdonable,no importa si el tecnico fuese,Rickard,Mourinho,Fergesson,Capello,etc,etc.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 poque duele mas perder contra Venz que contra un Brazil.
Actually, it has nothing to do with being upset at Suarez...I am just in awe that anyone would say something as ridiculous as this…it’s got nothing to do with how long he has been a Big Soccer member! “they are playing with a bunch of robotic Europeans… They lose a bit of the Latin flair and trickiness. Europe is good for these guys to make money, and for their development as professionals, NOT for developing their skill.” This comment really took me by surprise. Back to Suarez. I am a believer that his intentions are good. I am sure he wants Ecuador to win as much as any Ecuadorian. He set up a team and they did the best they could. A little bad luck and poor finishing cost Ecuador the game (not Venezuela’s goal). But I also firmly believe he has lost control of the team and is overwhelmed as can be when it comes to calling up players, motivating them to win, play offensive, making the proper subs to win or secure a win. He’s got to go! His time is up! I will say “Thanks for getting us to Germany 2006, there’s the door”!
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 el tema de prioridad para la sele en 2007: no era la RENOVACION? ESTAN EN ESE PROCESO y eso toma su tiempo y dos a tres chichones, ojala no se equivouqe mas y se traiga un empate del maracana (70 mil boletos vendidos y la prensa encima del cuello de dunga por lo de Bgt-ayer)
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 OK. You have to read what I said carefully because otherwise you miss the point and end up arguing something different. I am not falling into that trap. I will start off with the following: 1) There are many extremely successful South Americans who have been and continue to play in Europe and show the world their skills. 2) There are many skillful and talented Europeans that are some of the world's greatest players. If I had said "South Americans do not play well in Europe", or "Europe does not have good players", or something like that, well you would have argued my point with good examples. What I DID say is that Europe is not effective for Latin American players to develop their skill. I am referring to on-field, in-the-game, technical soccer skills. All the fantastic Latin players you mentioned above were amazingly skillful BEFORE they went to Europe - therefore it is the CAUSE of their playing in Europe, not the EFFECT of playing in Europe. BIG difference. Those skills were made in Latin America. Now...what nobody can ever know is whether these players would have been even BETTER had they played their careers in South America. However, what does seem to be puzzling to people is the trend for teams that see a sudden migration of players to Europe to actually decline in quality. Look at the more recent cases of Colombia and Chile, both of which had great teams, then started sending more players to Europe and since then have severely underperformed in the past few years. If Europe is so great for players, these two countries should have continued to be dominant. Now look at Ecuador - De La Cruz is not even a shadow of the player he used to be, Mendez has CLEARLY declined in the past year, a couple of the other guys remain to be seen. Oh yeah, and did you ever hear of a guy named Kaviedes who scored 42 goals then went to Europe at the age of 21 and never became the star he was supposed to be? One argument is that the players lose their desire and stop playing hard because they are making money. I don't buy that. What does happen is that in Europe, the game is more tactical and disciplined (in general), which means that these players have to adapt to a particular role or function on the field and do not get to apply their creativity at its fullest. In addition, the competition for playing time is fierce, which means they are also possibly getting more time on the bench, which is bad for players physically and psychologically. This is getting long. But basically the point is that my point is not ridiculous and the impact of Europe on players can be reasonably argued.
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 I understood what you said. You said, "I think players that are in Europe don't play as well because they are playing with a bunch of robotic Europeans and under strict tactical discipline. They lose a bit of the Latin flair and trickiness." Just as there are examples of players not being able to develop skill in Europe, there are players that have...and the list is endless on both ends. I could also argue that certain 17 year old players from Latin America have gone to Europe and have turned into incredible players and you could come back and argue that they were already skillful before they went. To zero in on several of your points; 1. Most Latin American players in Europe are there because they showed great skill in their home leagues, or Libertadores or for their national team. If they didn't have skill, or the ability to show it at a level where scouts are checking out action, they would not have made it to Europe to begin with because they would have probably gone unoticed for the most part. Your argument is that after these players made it to Europe, matters not if they were 17 or 25, they pretty much leveled off or even lose "Latin flair" and/or "trickiness" because of your reasons mentioned above. I don't see how on Earth you can even say this. 2. Chile and Colombia did not stop dominating, the rest of South America has caught up - even Venezuela. Same can be said about Paraguay and Urugauy. If your argument for Chile and Colombia's NT to have met a decline is because their players are playing in Europe, then why are Argentina and Brazil still so good??? Their whole teams play in Europe! It could be because they have talent and the talent is playing in Europe. Some players are developing their skill further, some are at a plateu and some have declined. That's just how it is. 3. ULDC was incredible in Hibernian, where he got better and better and eventualy good enough for the EPL. But he wasn't a young kid any more and at 27, his age when he left for Europe, most players are beyond developing skill but instead they start to develope an intuition of the game. Especially defenders. You said, "Look at Ulises de la Cruz for a textbook example of what happens to a player that spends too long over there. That guy used to have dazzling skill." So he "used" to have "dazzling skill" but because of years in Europe he lost it??? How about the fact that he's 33!!! Mendez is doing just fine at PSV...plus, he had an injury and is recovering. He is not playing well for the NT but then again, who is??? There is a lot of competition at PSV and he is holding his position. He was 27 when he went of to PSV as well- but what happened in 2004 when we was moved and moved between Club Irapuato and Santos Laguna?? But you can't blame his decline because he was in Mexico, since shortly after, he came back to Ecuador...got his super powers back with Liga and a great WC in 2006 and moved on to Europe. But you say his decline is coming back?? I guess he better go back to Ecuador again for another recharge. You know, it was only in March of this year that he became the first Ecuadorian to score in a Champions League game against Arsenal...not to long ago. As far as Kaviedes is concerned, please...his moving to Europe was not the decline of his development as a player...a combination of poor attitude, not in the manager's plans and underperforming were the issues. He scored 40 something goals in Ecuador!!! Did we really expect him to do the same in Europe. Had he stayed in Perugia (but the new coach ousted him) where he scored 7 goals in half a season, he would have been great!! Instead he has never stay with a single team after his move for more than one year, ever!!! This includes being in Ecuador, Mexico and Argentina. Not Europe's fault. 4. So how do European players develop skill?? Aren't they playing the same "robotic and tactical" system from the moment they first play the game?? How do players like Philip Lahm Podolski, 23 and 22 become what they are?? Toni Kroos or Marko Marin from Germany's under 20 team...have you seen these kids play?? Kroos is only 17. They play in Germany, known for "robotic" and "monotone" methods. According to your argument, these kids could be the next Maradona had they grown up in South America instead of Germany. 5. Managers are more tactical in Europe than S America??? Players in South American teams are not just allowed to run free developing skill, you know. The best teams in South America have dicipline as well as tactical levels that are better than the lower level teams. Along with the talent, it is the ingredient to success in their leagues and Copas. All good managers from around the world have tactical and diciplinary needs for their teams - and his does not take away from a player developing skill by any means. 6. Fierce competition is found on every team and at every level. The better the team, the better the players competing. That is not an argument either. You will find that everywhere from El Nacional and LDU to River and Boca to Bayern and Real Madrid!! You do not lose your creativity because of this either! If you are not good enough to start with a certain team, you should move. It doesn't matter what league or what country you are in. Ecuador is doing poorly because they are unmotivated and unguided. The problem is the manager, Suarez, not the fact that UDLC and Mendez play in Europe. UDLC is getting older and his shadow along with him and his 33 years of age, and so is Ivan Hurtado, 33 too, and played for 6 teams in his last six years, or did his short spell in Murcia, Spain hurt him too
Hey there people. I know I only come around when Ecuador plays, but can someone please tell me what the ******** is going on? I didn't watch the game, but goddamn it! It's unacceptable to lose at home. I was incredibly critical of this team after the copa america and even more so now. Sure the coach is horrible, but the players are really bad too. Is there any of you out there still holding on to the "Ecuador has got talented players" thing? After this result, I think it's proven that we don't have any truely talented players.
By the way....can someone tell me how this game went? I didn't see it, but I am willing to bet that there was a bunch of lost opportunities, poor shots on goals, too many long passes from the midfield to the strikers that were lost because of poor dribbling, bonehead defensive mistakes, and players driving in at full speed only to lose the ball at the end. Is that how it went? I would like to know.
don't ask for a recap of the game because you just gave it to yourself, thats exactly how the game was played out...
Re: Ecuador vs Venezuela -eliminatorias WC10 Suarez makes bad subs in the past...period. He has done this time and time again and I am quite frustrated with him. Walter Ayovi I have hated for so long and I never FOR THE LIVE OF ME, understood why Suarez would even consider him for the squad. He is still pushing Lucho Caicedo which is another player who simply leaves many, I mean many open gaps in our defense. I am surprised that Saritama was not called up. Perhaps this is a sign of change I don't konw. Suarez should have called players that deserve to be on the pitch. That said, I will take back what I said earlier regarding our last game. I must say we played a very good game and the team communication was outstanding. I can even eat my words Regarding Bagui and (guys dont hit me) Walter Ayovi. Ayvi made some pretty sweet crosses. I was impressed. I blamed Suarez before 80%. 20% I blame the players. However this time, the team was so unified that I think I will only blame Suarez 10%. We did good. We just had a bit of bad luck and Tenorio was no in his element.
Did you see Venezuela vs. Argentina? I'm sorry but Venezuela is still a crappy team. They looked like children, I don't remember them even creating one good chance at goal. Argentina, especially Messi, was playing as if in a practice match, they were trying to walk the ball into the goal! Let's not close our eyes to the reality...Ecuador is playing badly right now, and there is no excuse for losing against Venezuela.